WhyWeWork BrianVee
WhyWeWork BrianVee

Episode 117 · 9 months ago

#117​ Tim Ringgold - Music Therapist & Author & Speaker - BrianVee WhyWeWork

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tim Ringgold is a certified music therapist, as well as an author, TEDx speaker and business owner.

Contact Info

Tim’s Profile
linkedin.com/in/timringgold

Website
timringgold.com (Personal Website)

Phone
(714) 616-0388 (Work)

Address
133 N. Dogwood St. Orange, CA 92869

Email
tim@timringgold.com

Twitter
timringgold

...welcome to why we work with your host,Brian V. As he speaks to people like you from all over the world as wetogether dive deeper into our motivations, struggles, joys, seeminglymissteps, hopes, warnings and advice which will be an encouragement to usall to get up, get going and keep on working. Working is tough, but workingis good. Now here's your host to why we work. Brian V. I'm Brian V. And this iswhy we work today. At the great pleasure of speaking with Tim Ringel.Tim is a business owner, Ted X Speaker, author and certified music therapist.Today I want to ask him how our work ethic is related to our values. Join metoday in my conversation with Tim Ringgold. I'm Brian V. And this is whywe work today. Have the great pleasure speaking with Tim Ringgold. Good day,Find, sir. Good day. Find, sir. Do you Tim, I appreciate you coming on here.We had a top up our coffee. Here are mug at least. Are you drinking tea orcoffee? Some throat coat tea. I think you're It's kind of like when we getolder like I go jogging and people have asked me, Why are you jogging on amountain? This lady? I live in South Korea and she's 60. I think she's like,Why it's it's so bad for your legs. I go because I'm stupid. That's That'swhy I haven't gotten to that point realizing what is probably best for me,and I certainly should be drinking more tea, I think. Well, that's okay. I'vehad four cups of coffee today, myself as well. So it's not all T over here.Ladies and gentlemen, don't be fooled. I am drinking decaffeinated coffee.There you go. I'm not. My doctor told me if I really want to get rid of theseheadaches, that was the coffee. There you go. Caffeine, he added. Cheese andchocolate. And come on now and proper sleep in a proper pillow. And so I'mlike, If you would have gave me one, then maybe I would have least attemptedthat, But you gave me a whole list. It's too hard to manage too much. It'stoo much. Yeah, one thing at a time. I heard a great um, there's a guy namedJoe Sugarman who is a He's a salesman, and he was the inventor of the BlueBlocker sunglasses back in the day, and I heard him speaking at a mastermindevent one time. And Joe is in phenomenal shape When you meet Joe. Hewears like the Hurley, like under armour like muscle shirts and Joe'splay in his mid seventies. Now and he's ripped and you're like Dude, like,please tell what are you doing right? And he's like, It's what I'm not doingany more. And he's like So my mantra is one thing. A year I quit one thing ayear. So, like one year it was Pepsi. Mhm. But then the next year was Coke, and then it was sugar like white sugarin my coffee. Then it was cream in my coffee, right?So But it's these tiny increments, increments, tiny increments because wekind of underestimate how long we're going to be around. And when we when wego to make change, we kind of overdo it usually right and then we burn out. Sohis theory was, and this was 2010, and now you know, BJ Fogs book Tiny Habitsis like all the rage. And it was Joe's. Joe was living this, you know, 10 yearsbeforehand, and it was really funny because he's like, You know, prettysoon you'll stop eating pizza and...

...you'll stop drinking coffee. You know,stop drinking alcohol. And then Bill Phillips, who wrote Body for Life, isin the corner. He goes, I might as well die. Just give up everything right.It's like at some point you ask yourself the question, Yes, but what amI enjoying? Am I enjoying anything anymore? But But there is something tobe said about that, because as I age I find that I'm slowly letting things go,and I run a really clean machine now, mostly like plant based, no alcohollike sleep eight hours, meditate, cold showers like down the list.Intermittent fasting. But I'm operating physically at a level at 48 that Iwasn't operating at 37. Mm, no, I'm really happy with those results, right?So I don't mind letting go of some things, because what it's done is it'sactually made, available all kinds of other things, and so it's really beenlike a net gain. So that's kind of the way I think about it. What am I gainingwhen I let this go, as opposed to what am I losing? I was I was joggingyesterday and as I was struggling because I didn't jog for a couple ofdays, So then you struggle a little bit more as I was getting down the bottomof the mountain. There's this guy. I think he must have been older than me.But he was ripped and he was, you know, T shirts and shorts. So we're justtransitioning here in the weather like it could have been T shirt, shortweather. But he was jacked and just going up the mountain, like, you know,he just started. But I know it's kilometers to that point and he's goinglike, Okay, I shouldn't complain. I need to do better. You know, I can dobetter. And I went home, came home last night and were eaten fried chicken andhey, that's all right, man. Everything in moderation, including moderation. SoI fully enjoyed my completely unhealthy popcorn last night while watching onedivision fully enjoyed it because I you know, I'm doing 7, 10, 22 other thingsin my day that are super good for my body. And so Yeah, that popcorn tastesgood with whatever that is that they call butter. I'm sure it's not. I tryto convince my dear wife. We went to Costco the other day. I say, Honey,let's try some popcorn. She went like, maybe next time, maybe. Maybe next timethere was a huge box. I think you had 45 packets of Wow. Wow. Well, it'sCostco, right? Yeah. Maybe we could have just tried one sample, guys.Otherwise you're apocalyptically stocked. It was heavy, too. I was like,Honey, how about Oh, this? Honey, I thought we use this for weight training.When we get you could have a doorstop. Tim, can you let us know of theindustry you're in and what you're up to nowadays? Sure. The industry, I mean, wouldbehind you on your on your shoulders. Yeah. There you go. So, um, a hint isthat I'm in the I'm in the wellness, health and wellness space, but I'm anunusual practitioner because my modality is music. And I'm what's knownas a board certified music therapist. And so I was I started out as amusician. Uh, I was on stage when I was four. By the time I was 16, I wassinging for the pope in ST Peter's Square during Holy week like music forentertainment. And and then I went through, like the worst experience ofmy life. In 1995 my five best friends were murdered and I lived in a smalltown, and it was just I've never been through anything like it. I mean, Iwent to five funerals and four days and the pain and the trauma was just, youknow, overwhelming. And I sang goodbye at all of my friends' funerals. It wasmy way to say goodbye and it tore me up,...

...but it healed my community. And thenight of the last funeral, I went to a concert. Someone of my last remainingbuddy said, You want to go see a show? And I was like, Oh, yes, please andBrian For the first two hours since I got the news, I found peace aftergiving yourself during those songs for the last 54 days, giving yourself andnot actually healing, hoping to be healing other people, then return atthis concert. It was full circle, right? I got what everyone was talking aboutFinally, and I was like, Oh, wow! Because whether it was cocaine, weed,alcohol, porn and food, I medicated every which way I could that week totry to numb the pain and nothing worked. And I mean, I was stacking thesebehaviors on top of each other and even recorded music. I mean, I'd get highand I'd listen to music, and I'd still feel the pain. But when I went to seelive music, there was something about that experience that took it all away.And in that moment, I was like, That's it, This is This is my purpose. This iswhat I'm going to do for the rest of my life. I'm going to help others reachfor music in their toughest times so that I can just pay it forward. And sothat's what I do. I help people who are struggling with stress, uh, withaddiction, particularly mental health issues like depression, anxiety, and Ihelp them to stay present, open up, be creative, escape that stress in ahealthy way, and really reconnect with what's important to them all by usingmusic. Can you do us a favor, Tim, and bring us back. You mentioned singing atthe age of four. But what would have been your very first job will get intothe process of what you do in your work nowadays. But what would have been thefirst thing you did for money? I got paid two bucks an hour to mow myneighbor's lawn. Quite common. Long got started. Papers? Yeah, that's right.Yeah. Mowing lawns in military. Uh, 10 11. Right around there. Whatwere you doing before? What got you out of the house? Uh, probably G i Joe. Comic books andaction figures. Like I had a habit. Like I needed a fix, you know, of mytoys. And my allowance wasn't cutting it, so I needed to do something more asyou got older. I know you had more of more of a heavy metal influences thatwould that be accurate? Did you work in different jobs or were you making somemoney in music as well as you got up into high school? Yeah, I, uh I alwaysworked outside of music. I wasn't ever getting paid, really. For music. I wasI was performing music, mostly through school. Um, and I don't think I'mtrying to think, like when I got my first. When did I get paid? Playingmusic. I was probably 19, and I got paid a bag of weed. I mean, I thinkthat was probably the first time, but until then, it was like I worked inretail for outdoor sports because I was also, I'm an athlete, and I'm anoutdoor enthusiast like yourself. So, uh, I worked at a store that sold thatkind of gear, you know? And then, uh, you know, then I'd I'd work the oddkitchen job at a at a restaurant where I could get hired. Um, just trying,trying to make a buck. And I never connected that. You know how to makemoney. Doing what I love that took that. Came along much later because, yeah, Iheard the story of it Took you a while to get there into your thirties. Butwhat were you thinking as high school was coming to an end about your future,about what you might do, and and I didn't have any idea. But doing thispodcast of why we work, many people do. And for you you had it even spoke tosomeone yesterday and just that sometimes with all the noise, we getconfused with what the message is for you. There is a musical thread thatwent through it all but uncertainty...

...exactly as to exactly what it lookedlike. So for you at high school and after what were you thinking for a joband to sustain yourself? That was a real struggle for me, Brian, because Iknew two things about myself in high school that my parents didn't want toadmit. And that was that. I'm an athlete and I'm an artist. What youmentioned, athlete. Uh, I grew up playing soccer and rugby, and I got Iended up playing in college. I was an international, played for aninternational team, uh, in the United States, Went to Europe, played, gotscouted for rugby, for rugby and rugby. Guys scare me. Oh, they're insane. Wewe are insane. Yes, 100 play university football. And you know, some guys whodid make the team went and played rugby like, No, I'll keep my helmet. Yourbest man, because they're running at the same tilt. It may be faster, right?Yes, yes. No, no. I don't know if I ever picked up a rugby ball. Whateveryou call it, you would have been. You would have been like somebody overinflated this football. Why? I've seen and you know, But I'm like, No, it'sall right. Good. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what's funny about rugby is it's aIt's a perfect marriage of football and soccer and having grown up playing alittle bit of football but a lot of soccer because my town was like asoccer town. Um, but I was insane enough to play football. I had noproblem, no no reservations. Playing football was just so I had all thesemad soccer skills, but I got cut from my college team and then I gotrecruited to play rugby because they were like, Dude, you would be perfectand rugby with that foot from from soccer. And so I immediately slippedright in. Um, but here it was. The challenge I grew up in Connecticut wentto a prep school was kind of bread not so much raised. So the joke is that Ikind of came out as this artist and this athlete, and my parents didn'tcome from either background and I listen, we've been doing wrong here.That is exactly what they said. That there was an intervention. Brian, nojoke. My mom said I would have rather you were gay because then I would haveknown you had no say in the matter. It was rough. My parents really pushedreally hard on me not to go in those directions. And I was like I was inwho's who in American music in 1989 as a junior in high school. And you thinkthis is a hobby, like all the indicators were there, that how Iexcelled where time disappeared, where I entered that ultra zone of focus,that flow state was either on stage or on the field. Those were the two areas,and everything else in my life was a disaster. Like just not interesteddon't care total apathy but laser focus, creativity, work ethic in those twoareas. But my family really was a very strong dissuade er of going in eitherof those directions because it was like, you know, in the United States, ifyou're going to go in professional sports or professional music like thosetwo industries, like I get it as a parent, the 1% of the 1% make a lot andeverybody else makes nothing. And so my parents just didn't see a pathway of,like, long term, like financial success for me and either one. So they justkept pushing me to go into politics or economics or business. And so I wouldtry, okay? And I'd be okay in sales because of an extrovert. But I wasmiserable, and I I remember having a nervous breakdown. After getting a job,I rented a house in the suburbs. I...

...drove a Chrysler New Yorker. I had golfclubs and a tennis racket in my trunk. No joke. This is all true story, whichsounds really funny coming from this guy because it's like you did What?What are you in the witness relocation program? Like? I was genuinely tryingto be someone else for my parents. And I couldn't picture to your mom. Is thisall right? Is this what you're looking for? Because I'm miserable. But are youhappy? And so it took a lot of courage for me and and in several extra yearsbefore, I just finally said, You guys, listen, there is no other way that Ican do this and I had had a kind of like a career ending knee injury in therugby world. So it was all music as far as I was concerned, and I finally madethe decision like I am going to make a career. I don't know what it looks like,but I'm going to make a career out of music. When I was 22 that was when I Imade that decision and informed everyone in my life. This is how it'sgoing to go. But knowing that you have a child, maybe you can speak about this becauseI'm I'm in a group a men's group when we meet and we just started readingParenting by Paul Paul Trip and it and I think because we're only theintroduction. So, um, the idea of parents temptation to be owners oftheir kids rather than ambassadors and the temptation to whether we'retalking about work or success or other areas of our Children's lives. And youknow, I don't think it's even a knock on your parents who want it the bestfor you with what total do right with what they do and how they thought andwhat limited really limited knowledge we all have about the future, what wethink. Okay, I think if he did this or she did this, then this is where theywould go. We have no idea what tomorrow will bring, but that temptation havinga child yourself in mind as well, and for me as well, uh, we just we want thebest for our kids. And that temptation is like, Okay, if you just listen to me,I know your life is going to go and you know, we can't even paid control of ourown because we know it's going to be a good for you. How do you think that?You know, understanding having your own child as well, and and that temptationto become the owner rather than just a representative trying to be a tool tohelp them in their life. 100%. What a struggle. Absolutely. I know that mydad, for example, my dad grew up in the Depression. He was born in 28 and, um,his dad died when he was five and his mom raised three kids as a single momin the Depression Now that background of context like you don't follow yourdreams, you don't get to follow your dreams. What your passion, right? Youdon't you don't get a vote on your passion In that context, it's like, Howdo you How do we eat today? How are we going to keep the lights on and thestove running like totally different? Right? And when he was 17, he gotdrafted to play professional baseball. But he was a minor and his mom was going to have to cosign the contract and she wouldn't because there was no money in baseball.Back then, he was 17 and 45 there was absolutely no money in baseball andhaving just scraped three kids through and he was the youngest and he's now 17,she's like, and the last thing I'm doing is signing you to go playbaseball. Are you kidding? Like And so I write and I get the world that hecame from and that his mind, when I say I get the world, I actually don't Idon't even know what that must have...

...been like, but trying to convey thecontext behind that. He's like Dude I never he goes. I never had a bedroom,he goes. I lived on the couch in the living room till I left home and I waslike, What? That's so foreign to me, you know? And so he's like All I cantell you is that was my experience. My experience was like, You do what'sright, not what's fun or not. You don't get to follow your dreams and my momwould tell me she was like, Yeah, he was basically told Don't follow yourdreams. And so now, as a parent myself, So I have a 14 year old daughter. Ihave a nine year old son and, um noticing the spirits within their bodywho they are and noticing who they are and who they're not and what they'regood at, What they're not good at what they are interested in, what they'renot interested in. Um, it's really interesting because, like I have tojust I have to kind of turn off my opinion because it's not my it's not myrun. I'm I'm on my run there on theirs, and I have a responsibility to them,right, to keep them safe and developmentally like they don't have aprefrontal cortex until they're like 18 to 24 right? So there's certain thingswhere I have to be like, No, you can't do this and you have to do that whetheryou like it or not. That's driving my adolescent crazy right now. She's like,You know, you're making decisions for me. I'm like, Yes, that is my job Isaid. But you're ultimately like I'm We're trying to curate a path, a safepath forward where you have as much opportunity as possible and theirstructure and stability as a foundation for you. And then you're going to getto a point where you get to jump off and fall, climb, crash sore and dowhatever you want. But in the meantime, we have to kind of keep some boundaries.Some structure, like a like a cement foundation is kind of boring, but we'regoing to try to inform you the best we can about this, you know, emergingworld. But ultimately you're going to know about the emerging world more thanwe are because you're right in it right now. Like she's in twitch, right? She'sin tic tac. She understands she's a digital native. You know what I mean?The digital is a second language for my wife and I, you know, we started out inthe atoms economy. She started out in the bits economy. So it's a completelydifferent world, and it's it's fascinating. Kind of like, How muchrains do you let out and how much rains do you hold in? And that dynamictension in that process? I think that is the game of parenting opposed to nothaving any rains at all. Oh, yeah, yeah. Some like math. Go ahead. Yeah, goahead. Good luck. I mean, developmentally kids have to havestructure developmentally. Their brains need structure in order for them to befeel safe and feel connected. And so when you apply structure its care forkids, if you don't supply structure, it's actually mentally detrimental,emotionally detrimental to them, so you don't have to be popular the whole time.That's not your job. Your job is to provide provide structure so they knowwhere up is. They know where down is. It's reliable, it's predictable, andtheir job is to push right up against that wall, find that boundary and pushagainst it and the analogy I like to give people is. Imagine if someone putsyou in a dark room and they turned out all the lights and it's pitch black andthey and you're standing in the middle of the room. Your sense, your senses.You start to freak out because wares up wears down the moment you walk slowlyand you find a wall. Instinctively, you don't leave the wall,you walk along the wall, find your way...

...using that boundary, and that's exactlydevelopmentally and emotionally what kids need. They need walls that theycan push up against and then walk along as they find their way to the door. 1821 whatever that door is, and then they can walk out on their own. But theyneed those walls to be able to push up against and know that there's somethingthere that they can lean on and press against. It's reliable, it's steady andthey can lean on that. And that's really an important thing. I think thata lot of younger generation, their parents are afraid to impose on theirkids. Yeah, I heard someone say in reference to something else, but I likethe word just grueling it. I understand the son, daughter. This all seemsgrueling to you, but it will be good for you. And I think you and I, or atleast we have some things I heard you say Another podcast and read is we'veexperienced some things that were just hoping that our kids don't need toexperience for them to figure. Oh, maybe I shouldn't go down that path.That shouldn't be something. At 70 I'm trying to cut It might not be Coca Cola.It might be something else, right? We don't. Come on, please. If you couldjust take my word for it. There's a whispers that to my kids a lot, there'sa There's this great, uh, story, and I won't tell the whole story. But thestory talks about, um, ways we learn in life, and some of us we learn throughothers where we can listen and hear someone else's experience and learnfrom it and just go prescribed. You did it. I don't need to do that to know.And so the example might be with the stove. So the stove is hot, kid, don'ttouch the stove. The stove is hot. One kid will go. Thanks. I won't touch thestove. And they won't because they the way that they're wired, they they don'thave No. They have no problem relying upon the experience of others to kindof inform them and fast track their way as they navigate. And then you have mydaughter who's like, how other kids. Then you have my daughter, right? Howhot is it? You know, and so she's got a personality where she's like, I knowyou told me the stove is hot, and I will touch it just because you told menot to. And I'm like, Cool. You're someone who has to touch the stoveyourself. You have to have that personal experiential knowledge. Youneed to do it yourself to understand it in your bones. And I can tell it to youseven times and you're going to just go. Thanks for sharing, but I need to findout for myself. Okay. All right. Well, that is if that is the way you're wired.And that's how you want to experience this lap in this physical body. So beit. I'll be here along the way to bandage up your finger when you burn itand I'm not going to make you wrong for touching the stove. I'm going toencourage you not to, but at the end of the day, she recognizes this in herself.I recognize this in her and we have a pretty good partnership where I tellher I'm still going to tell you it's hot. That's my job. Your job is todecide whether to listen or experience it for yourself. I can't tell you whatto do. In that case, I can just make a recommendation and there will beconsequences. You're going to learn right for yourself. And my son's great.He'll just take my word for it. I'm so grateful that they're both not their hand holding hands going together.Hey, like this. See you, Dad. Get the bandages ready. That's my daughter is11. My son is seven, and I see that with my daughter, and I'm glad we'rehaving this conversation because it allows me to think a little bit moreclearly than what I have normally been thinking about being a parent, andthat's why I like this little group into. But my son, like seven, is askingso many questions and repeating the...

...things that I've said weeks later. LikePapa, I shouldn't do this because you did that right, Like that's right,right? And it's just Those are great great moments in my dog moments. Goahead. Do you want to touch the stove? It's there. But I did tell you, Youknow, you want to go out there with your friend and you know someone with aphone and go on playing and not actually playing. You know, this iswhat's going to happen. This is going to be a habit, and you can see her kindof kind of sneaking away and not really listening. And those are It's a greatconversation. They're amazing. And I'll tell you the one we had. Maybe it waslast night even, Um, I don't know how it came up, but I said it was my wifeand my two kids, and we're all watching one division right now. We're enjoyingit. What is that? Is that, um, it's the It's the series from, uh, and theMarvel Avengers. They did us. They're doing a series on Disney Plus and, uh,it's Wanda and vision from the Avengers. And it's this you know the ongoingstoryline from the Marvel Comics universe after the Last Avengers movie?Are you, uh, Netflix family as well, or Yeah, yeah, yeah, we love it. So whatwe try to do is we try to find a show together that we all will enjoy, andand it gives us something to chew on, you know, from an entertainment, uh,and just dialogue. But somehow I don't know how it came up. The drugs came uplast night, and I just said, in the most honest tone of voice, I said, Youguys, please, just whatever you do, just come to me before you go do anydrugs. Just come to me and do them with me first. And my wife was like, Yes, listen toyour dad. And it was the funniest thing because it was like, I think I justsaid that, right? Like, as opposed to, like, don't do drugs, don't do drugs.Like as if, Right, that that's good luck. It's like, just say no good luck.You know, um and I was just honest. I was like, Listen, just come to me everyquestion you have, Bring it to me. Don't ask your friends. I will give youall the honest answers. I will have all the honest conversations with you withno judgment about any of it. Just just come to me. And they were like, youcould see them like this is awesome. Thank you. And I was like, You'rewelcome. Listen, your little spirits in a body, you're trying to figure thisstuff out. I'm not going to be the one that you need to fear coming to becauseyou're going to get scolded because you're going to think every darkthought under the sun because you're a human being. You're gonna try dumbthings because you're a human being. I know this because I did it all. I didit all. So I'm not going to come here and pretend like I'm better than you.And I've never done anything. And I never thought anything or felt anything.So like you. Anything you want to bring to me, you're safe coming to me with it.You're never gonna get in trouble. You're never gonna get scolded andgiving them that psychological safety, um, feels weird because it's totallythe opposite of my upbringing. But in my upbringing, I also went off the deepend of exploration and, like Taboo and over doing stuff. And I did all I meanthere by the grace of God here, by the grace of God, am I. I did so many riskythings and and I'm lucky to be alive. You know, I'm just lucky to be alivebecause any number of things that I did along the way I could have killed me orlanded me in jail. So I just want them to have like, uh, kind of like aconciliatory like a wise old elder that they can come to and crash any ideaagainst and not get in trouble for it. That's right. And that goes back to thethe ownership. If we're trying to own...

...our kids and think that we can controlevery moment and thought in there were just squeezing them like putty orwhatever, and they're just gonna pop out of there and be gone guide anddoing all those things and they might be might see them physically. But there,there, you've lost them, checked out, and and that's unfortunate. I think Ihad a upbringing where I was able to do whatever I want it. And and I rebelled,So I don't know what the what the point was, but I went and I don't want thatfor me because I want to show them a loving family at home and that we arehere and to support them. And I was actually thinking I haven't said it tothem yet, But I was thinking just the other day, And like, if my kids want todo drugs or, you know, whatever it is, I think I would want to be there forthem, right? And I was like, I don't know if I thought I'm going to do itwith them. Maybe I did. I was like, whatever. A little bit more minor, like,I'm not going to do some heroin with them or anything like that. But I'mgonna be there and to support them. And I've talked about drugs with my kids,even though they're young info. I live in this culture in Korea where drugsare drugs are bad, right? Don't do drugs, Okay? Right. And I think peoplehave a fear and well what? It wasn't reminding when you're talking aboutyour dad. Is Korea the war that they had in the forties. There's stillpeople alive that remember that, and so they have this hardworking mentality.But the kids don't have that because just like your kids or my kids, they'vegrown up in this digital age. And, you know, Korea is doing very well and theydon't know. But the parents are so worried of you know what their parentswent through through the war. So they're holding on to this. And nomatter how it's looked upon like people, Koreans who think about going to Canadaor going to the United States sec, so many drugs, so many bad people overthere, how are we going to do this? And then so they control them even more.And then you just you know, they're just spring springing off into allthese different directions. And I think, you know, being that soundboard, beingthere for your kids and being honest that, you know you're going to havethese temptations. You know I can't keep you in my home forever. But I dowant to have an open door that you're always welcome to your like Iunderstand, and if I don't understand, let's have a conversation and help meunderstand a little bit better what you're going through. Yeah, right. It'sa great It's a great journey. I mean, it's it's a facet. And I remember whenwhere my wife was pregnant with our first one of our friends. He said to me,He said, Tim, you've done a lot of things in your life He goes, But you'regoing to love being a parent. He goes. It is just the most fascinating journey.And one of the things I learned early on and it hasn't changed is that almostevery day like this was more prevalent when they were like toddlers. But it'sstill I'm seeing this happen pretty regularly now, even with them at nineand 14 is like, You wake up and they say or do something that they didn'tsay or do yesterday, and they didn't know they were going to say or do ittoday and you didn't either. And so you're all in this, like exploratorysandbox together, witnessing this emergence, which for me, so just tokind of back up and drop the spiritual like nuke. So for me, my belief system,my framework that this whole thing is informed by is that I you We are tiny,individual ations of this non physical energy that came into form toexperience itself for no reason other than experience. And so that takesmorality and it goes away. You. We invent ideas around agreement as socialbeings so that we don't blow this thing up really quickly. So we're in thiskind of communal expression experiment...

...as humans, and we're all parts of thesame hole having individual experiences within it. But it's a collectiveexperience, which means that what I do impacts you in some way, which you do,impacts me in some way. It's a collective yet individual experience,but the point is to express myself how I want to and experience expression andlearn along the way what I like. What I don't like, what helps others, whatdoesn't help others, what might hinder others and, like, who am I to direct orcontrol the experience of Ali and Julian, whatever their actual spiritualname might be? Because inform. Right now they're playing the role of a girland a boy. But who knows how many times they have incarnated as a human? Idon't know I don't know how many times I've incarnated I We waved the magicmen in black memory pen, so we forgot it. Also, we would seem really real.And this idea this backdrop creates a fascinatingopportunity for discussion around the dinner table as so because what I'mwitnessing in front of me are these emerging spirits in body anddevelopmentally, they're having to navigate how to control the machine,the developing machine that they're inhabiting, which is this meat suit,which has boundaries. And so it has hormones. It has, like, you know, adeveloping brain and and they're having to navigate this little spirit insidethis body is having to navigate how to use the machinery, and sometimes it'sclunky, and sometimes it works well and and I'm watching it take place. Butmeanwhile, I'm having the same experience. Yeah, so we're kind ofhaving a communal experience of this, like journey of exploration. But we'rehaving it together, so to me it's fascinating. It's just fascinating. Andso there are dinner conversations are really deep at our dinner table.They're really fun. They're often quite existential, quite philosophical, quitespiritual, because they've kind of been coming up inside of this framework, andit's pretty cool. Like my daughter right now is super into paganism andWicca. She's kind of leaning into, um, like this emerging sense of herself inconnection with nature deities spirit. And she's we we pay her to readnonfiction books that are personal growth, spiritual growth books. We payher 20 bucks a book saying with our son, This is our way of incentivizing themto, like, read developmentally new high nutrient material. So right And thenshe has to write like a three paragraph summary and presented an email it toMommy and Dad. She gets a 20. So the last two books you just read, we're onwitchcraft and she is coming like she is like meditating on her own. She'sperforming rituals on her own. She is having all kinds of spiritualexperiences right now on her own. She's 14, and she's guiding her own spiritualjourney. I'm not getting in the way of that. Are you kidding me? Go for that.You know, like she is dialed in. And who am I to say? No, you go do the eventhough people have been celebrating spirituality that way for tens ofthousands of years. You shouldn't. That's not for me to say so it's beenreally just a joyful, joyful journey. Sometimes I just look at my son anddaughter and, like you used to fit on my chest from here to here. Now, lookat you. You're talking sometimes talking back to I wish I had you as aparent growing up. Do you know how many bags I could have bought for, you know?And I would have read, too. And dude,...

...we would do. Are you kidding? We wouldhave had you as an entrepreneur. Like I'm utterly unemployable. Like I knowthis about myself. And my daughter is definitely also And we're trying toexplain this to her. It's pretty clear, like we're like, Look, we're going toyou're you're going to teach you, like how to, like, make money to do what youwant in the world. Like we're gonna put two and two together for you, and shedoesn't want to. I'm not ready to get a job. Where I didn't say Get a job.You're gonna have to make money in this world in order to do what you want todo. and we're going to show you creative ways to do that. That areoutside of the 9 to 5. And neither my wife nor I are parents were atentrepreneurs. Um, we didn't have any mentors models for that. And so, mebeing an entrepreneur, my wife left the corporate world to become my businesspartner. So now we're entrepreneurs together. We work from home. Our kidsare, you know, growing up in this environment, and it's like we're goingto show you the way and you can take it or leave it, but we're gonna We'regonna We're gonna show you the way. And, uh, that's what my daughter said. Wasit yesterday? Day before? Say, Papa, I want to start a lemonade stand sweet.Do it. This is where Well, she wanted to do it in another place that we'rethinking about being at one point. Do it now. It's You know, yesterday Ithink it was 25 26 degrees or whatever. You're 70 something. That's pretty good,right? It's pretty nice. Summer summertime is going to be 40 somethingor you're 100 something right. You can sell some lemonade. Here, Go do it likeshe's allegedly figure that one out. So not everyone has Children like ours. Or,you know we will struggle in. Our kids will grow up and have their ownproblems as well. So when you come across people for your profession, whatis the process that you go through with helping people with anxiety ordepression or addictions? What does that look like generally for you? Yeah.So, historically, um, my company works with, uh, a like a nationwide treatmentcenter for adolescents that are struggling. And what my company does iswe're part of an interdisciplinary team, and we provide music therapy groupsevery week for the kids who are at that treatment program. And the kids areusually 13 to 17. Um, and they're struggling with anything from anxietyto depression, self harm, disordered eating, suicidality, substance usedisorder and and the substance use disorder is usually an attempt to tryto regulate the other mental health issues. And so one of the big mistakesthat most people make is they think that drug use is a problem. Drug use isnot a problem. Drug use is a solution. Addiction is a solution to a problem.It's just a crummy solution. It's a solution that causes more problems thanit solves. But people who don't have trauma and don't have mental healthissues don't get addicted. The overwhelming majority of humans on theplanet use mind altering substances on a daily basis without for any problem.A small percentage of them have problems with it. But it's not becauseof the drugs, because if it was, everybody who used them would beaddicted. So, for instance, like a phone Oh, absolutely screen addiction100% right? Um, but the overwhelming majority of adults and teens use,experiment and have throughout human history. Primates even use mindaltering substances, so it's not the substances, so we all want to just takethat out of the picture. What they're struggling with is some sort ofphysical, emotional, social or spiritual pain. They've got pain in their self, andthat self is a physical self, an emotional self social self in aspiritual self, and they don't know how to process that pain. And so they reachfor something else in order to self...

...soothe, because that's what the nervoussystem does. Doesn't this go completely? And I've thought this before, butagainst the criminalization of people with, you know, narcotics of somethingor the use of, or even to some degree, even the selling of right, all of theabove right and how horrible it is that people are spending many years inprison for having a substance. When the reality is they should be in some sortof clinic. They should be getting treated for their for their pain. Yes,absolutely. You can't punish the pain out of people. Is a quote from a friendof mine, right? It just gives them more pain. You just re traumatizing them.And and across most developed countries, they have just a completely upside down.Um, really. And it there's a great book, and that way I won't go too far downthe rabbit hole. But I just finished reading this book called Drug Use forGrown Ups by Dr Carl Hart. Dr. Carl Hart is a world renowned, uh, substanceuse researcher, neuroscientist, um, and well known across the world for hisresearch. And And the point he makes in the book is that we criminalize people,particularly people of color around the world. But we criminalize them foraltering their consciousness. And your consciousness is sovereign,it's yours. And if you really want to say that you're free, then you're freeto do with what you want with your consciousness, so long as it doesn'timpact anyone else. But you're very much not free to do that. And whathappens is you have people who are in pain who are trying to alter the painso they're altering their consciousness to address the pain and we criminalizethem, and we punish them for that. So in treatment, what we're trying to dois we're trying to show them basically a heal the pain, whatever it was, findthe source of it and treat it. B teach them better tools for regulating theirnervous system. So when they are stressed, how do they regulate whenthey are down? How do they regulate back up when they're up? How do theyregulate down? How do they regulate their nervous system in a healthy way?Because they've probably been taught poor tools. And so music is one ofthose tools that helps a body regulate in a healthy way. So we show themthrough active music, making through music, listening through songwritingthrough relaxation through creative arts, we show them how to reach formusic in order to help them stay present, help them to open up andprocess things that are having to talk about it. How to really use creativityas a coping skills because creativity is the muscle we used to solve problemsin life, how to escape stress without medicating and then how to reconnectwith something outside of ourselves. Because, as as the four part physical,mental, social spiritual beings, we are wired to connect, that's what mammalsdo. We live in relationship from cradle to grave, and so we're not meant to dothis on our own. And so when we physically disconnect and mentallydisconnect and socially disconnect and spiritually disconnect, it createsdiscomfort, dis ease in the mind body and then it triggers cravings to selfsoothe. So we want to show them how to reconnect with something outside ofthemselves that's safe. Why music So powerful is that the beat the beatright? Just in the beat. The beat is safe. The beat has no opinion of you.It has no judgment of you. It doesn't tell you to do anything. It doesn't. Itdoesn't influence you in any way other than it influences your heart rate andyour blood pressure up or down. Um, so you can connect with the beat and nowyou're connected to something outside of yourself that's safe. And that for alot of people who have trauma and trust issues, initiating some sort of safety,some sort of safe connection to...

...something outside of themselves is thefirst step in their healing. My mom was in Excuse me in palliativecare last year, and there was the music lady would come by, and at first I waslike, You know, I just I think I was defensive of anyone coming in to see mymom like, you know, what's your angle? What's going up? This lady had a cart.I think I think she had a computer, a tablet or something where she can getsheets of music. And I was like, um, okay, go ahead, go ahead. And then mymom was happy, and then she was playing all kinds of songs and then my answerin there and they were singing. And then I'm like, This lady is pretty good.It's very, very helpful and, you know, in palliative care of all places. AndI'm just like, it's really good for these people to be getting together andsinging and kind of getting away from or, you know, there is some soothingand some healing that's going on as well. But I realized that then, Yeah, IMy Ted talk is based on the work I did on a palliative care team, becauseoftentimes it's the anxiety that existential anxiety that people arehaving in tough times. Am I going to make it? What's going to happen if Idon't really deep questions are going on in the back that might crash upagainst dogma or theology or culture or family and being able to softly verycomfortably address or escape that space through something thatthey've trusted their whole life, which is music. It's like bringing an oldfriend in the trusted advisor, and it just like the Ted talk The line waswhen the when the meds fail, the docs prescribe music because we trust musicit We let music into very sacred, very personal places for each one of us, andthere are things that we've thought or when we've heard songs, songs that toldour story or told what we were thinking or feeling that we never told anybodyelse. But that artist in that song shared the exact emotion or the exactfeeling or the exact thought. And in that moment we knew we weren't alone.That's really, really powerful and at a very deep level. The human being reallyappreciates that she won me over when she started taking requests. So I wasstarted listing off songs. But I just thought, you know, these would be inparticular good healing songs for my mom. And I was like, How about a MartinLuther? Uh, there's a song that he sings and are saying it wrote My refortress is our God and she had no idea she went in. A couple days later, shecame back. I got it, I learned it. I'm ready. And she sang it and I was like,Wonderful! That's our job. She really won me over. And it wasn't you know, Ithink she came from a different viewpoint, but she she didn't care. Shejust you know, I'm just going to do this for you. What about in yourposition? I know you only have a little bit of time. You might even be at thenear near the end of your time, actually. So just if you could a tipfor people getting into maybe your line of work or in work in general. Um, Andalso, what is some adversity that you have faced thinking of other people inthe adversity they face in their work? And what what suggestions would you orencouragement would you give to those people? Yeah, I have a funny litmustest for whether or not a line of work might be right for you, and I call itthe Starbucks factor. And the Starbucks factor is, if you consider going towork and then you think, Well, I better stop at Starbucks first. It might notbe the right place because what I found...

...in my career is I don't need Starbucksbefore I go to work, because I am so fired up about the idea of healingpeople with music. But there was a time early on in my profession when I wasworking with a particular population and I I took the work because I was newand I was taking all the work when I was new for the experience. But thereare some clinical populations that music therapists resonate with and somewe don't and And I noticed there were some groups where I needed a cup ofcoffee before I went to see that group and I realized I was like, You know, Idon't think I meant to work with this group because there are other groups Ican't wait to get there. And there are some groups where I can't wait to getto Starbucks first. So the Starbucks factor is a good thing to think aboutwhen you're considering the work you're going to do. Are you like, Well, Ibetter caffeine up 5 60 cents I paid the other day for a coffee. What am Idoing? Yeah, yeah, And you might go broke, you know, at the same time. Sochances are there someone else who will do it better, and we'll experience morejoy. And so get out of the way and let that person express themselves in thatvein and keep looking for what the right slipstream is for you. Because myexperience is when you when you're working in a field that is right islike a right fit for you. Time will become your enemy because you won'thave enough of it because it'll go too fast. And that's what anytime I am onthe court or on the field or I am in the studio or on the stage, time goesby too fast. And that's when I know I'm exactly where I want to be. I don'tlike your pressed encouraged. We can. We can go like five more. That's cool.Okay, encouragement for people are facing. I mean, you deal with this on aregular basis. It's part of your profession of people who arediscouraged but still work and wonder how they can put their feet on theground and face this day. You know, one is the Starbucks test, right? Likemaybe they shouldn't be doing this. But also encouragement for people who maybethis is for them. But they're still discouraged. Maybe their pain in theirpast. How how do you How do you deal with that yourself? And how do youencourage others? You know, a couple of couple of thoughts come to mind. Um, the first one Is this you? Me? We are far more resilient andstrong than we realize, and the only way we find our own strength is in thepresence of resistance. So adversity is something to lean intobecause that's where you discover your strength. All people who are strong arestrong as a result of resistance training. So your muscles are. They grow in thepresence of resistance, not in the presence of ease. They atrophy. And soI think about that mentally and spiritually as well that when you findyourself in the face of adversity, lean in because this is this is the momentwhere you'll discover more about yourself, then during the easy timesmay not feel good, but I don't believe that I'm here to feel good all the time.I don't think that's the point. I think the point is, the degree to which I gothrough adversity is the degree to which I can appreciate when things aregood. So I think that's an important thing, is leaning. We live in aconvenience culture and a comfort culture, and I think that kind of robspeople of the real joy. Like the real highs in life are only experienced inso far as their relative and counterbalanced by the by the strugglesand so, so lean in Don't don't resist and and discover something aboutyourself. You're gonna find something on the other side and one of my friendshe says everything you want in life is on the other side of your comfort zone.Mm. So don't just just quit the...

...bitching and lean into it and and seewhat you can discover and what you might discover. Well, you don't know.And working in recovery, I meet people at their lowest point. I see peoplebroken, broken and a shell of where they were at one point in their life.And then I see them rise like a Phoenix and live life to go on and do amazingthings that looked impossible at the time that I met them for both them andme. I don't I don't see anything good happening here, but that's possible.And I also see people not make it right. And so every day that I'm stillbreathing, I've got a shot. I've got a shot at something and I don't know whatit is exactly. And that's what makes the game worth playing because whilethere is some predictability in adulthood, there is also possibility.And I Could I You know, I have a podcast in2021. And I have, um my own summit platform where I've I've done twosummits now, uh, on stress in 2020. I did not have a podcast. I mean, in 20in January 2020 it wasn't even a possibility. It wasn't even on my radar.And then this giant juggernaut called Covid 19drops, and my speaking career goes away as I know it. And I'm now home in frontof a screen 24 7. And the first thing I do is I did 40. Facebook lives in 40days, just playing acoustic music to comfort people. And then I realized Ireally liked some of that material. How am I going to get that out tohealthcare workers who are struggling fast? I could invent a podcast, and Icould release a song a week. Suddenly I'm back recording. I think I'verecorded 22 new tracks since May of 2020 none of which existed beforelockdown. That is fascinating to me, because in the midst of all that chaos.There was a complete opportunity that I saw and just Okay, let's go for it. So,you know, if you're still breathing, you've got a shot they're taking my I don't know becausewe watched. I liked Andy growing up because I felt I had a little hardknock life and I heard my son saying the other day, It's a hard knock lifeand like, I don't know. But the point is, these when in reality thisadversity that we face is good for us, as you talked about the wall need toatrophy and the resistance that's necessary to allow us to appreciate. Begrateful for things. And I hope that with our Children and your Children aswell how can people reach you? Tim finds her Find me online. Uh, Instagramis at Tim Ringgold Facebook. Tim Ringgold, my website tim Ringgold dotcom with two gs, and, uh, if you go to my website, you can take a relaxationvacation for free. Uh, you can download a 15 minute guided tour through one ofyour best memories. I'll walk you out of the stress at the present, get youback in touch with one of your best moments of your life so you can bringthat experience back to the stress of the present. So you can be at your bestwhenever you need it. And that's my free gift to anybody who takes the timeto come find me online. Tim. One final question. Why do you work? Um, I work. Mm. Wow. That's a good question.Why do I work? You can edit all the silences. I thinkof the layers because there's like, there's multiple reasons why I work. Um,I work because one of the reasons that I'm inspired to work is this I workbecause I want my kids to experience...

...the planet with their five senses. WhatI mean by that is, as I grow my business, I have the ability to take mykids out of the little bubble that they live in in Southern California and goplaces and experience other places with their own hands, not on a screen, and for me, the ability to provide thatopportunity for them. I know, as I grew up, any time I left the United Stateslike the little blinders in my head. Mm. You know, I grew up in Connecticut, andany time I left New England, it was like I saw a wider view of the world.And then I got the opportunity in high school to go to Europe several timesand my view of the world and of the United States and what I had changeddrastically. And so. One of the reasons I work is to provide my kids with thatability to take the blinders off and see the world with wide open eyes. Wehope we can have them appreciate what you're doing in your sacrifice for yourwork as well. And for your family. Tim Ringgold, business owner. Ted X speaker,author and certified music therapist I appreciate your time, and I appreciatethe work that you do. This has been great. Thanks, Brian. Thank you forlistening to this episode of why we work with Brian Wien. Be sure tosubscribe, follow and share with others so they too, can be encouraged in theirwork. I hope that you have yourself a productive yet joyful day in your work.

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