WhyWeWork BrianVee
WhyWeWork BrianVee

Episode 51 · 2 years ago

#51 Mark Shaiken - Attorney Turned Author - BrianVee Whywework


Mark Shaiken was an attorney for nearly four decades and then authored "And . . . Just Like That - essays on a life before, during and after the law". He gives a wonderful perspective of dedication and following a dream.    

Contact Info 

Mark’s Profile linkedin.com/in/markshaikenphoto 


markshaikenauthor.com (Personal Website) 

markshaikenphoto.com (Company Website) 

disophoto.com (phtography magazine)  

Phone 913-530-6539 (Mobile)  


I am interested in connecting with College Sports Information Directors, media relations professionals, sports teams, Magazine Photo Editors or Corporate Marketing Professionals seeking a professional photographer for sports, marketing or advertising. 

Contact me at: 

email: markshaiken@fastmail.com, 

mobile: 913.530.6539.  

Email markshaiken@fastmail.com  

Twitter mshaikenphotog  


"AUTHOR: I am the author of "and . . . Just Like That - Essays on a Life Before, During and After the Law" available on Amazon, iTunes, and Barnes and Noble. 

 ARTS AND COMMUNITY SERVICE: I volunteer for a number of arts organizations, serve on several boards and committees and serve the Denver community.  

PHOTOGRAPHY: http://markshaiken.com. My images are used by sports teams, media, schools and corporations. I work with sports information and media directors, public relations and marketing professionals, and athletes. My photography business includes freelance sports and action digital photography, and I publish an on-line photography magazine: http:disophoto.com" (Linkedin, 2020)

...welcome to why we work with your host Brian V. As he speaks to people like you from all over the world as we together dive deeper into our motivations, struggles, joys, seemingly missteps, hopes, warnings and advice, which would be an encouragement to us all to get up, get going on, keep on working. Working is tough, but working is good. Now here is your host to why we work. Brian V. I'm Brian V, and this is why we work today. I have the great pleasure speaking with Mr Mark. Shaken Mr Mark. Shaken has lived a pretty extraordinary life in that he was a lawyer for 38 years and after retirement, after getting out of his law firm, he became an author. So this is an interesting conversation for me because I'm speaking to someone who has done something after a career, and I hope that it gives everyone a glimmer of sunshine as to not being stuck in something you may or may not want to be in, and that there is a career change possibility out there for you in the future. So let's see how Mark's career has shaped himself and what he has done and what he is doing now, after retirement, join me in this conversation with Mark Shaken. I'm Brian V, and this is why we work today. I have the great pleasure of speaking with Mr Mark shaken. Good day find, sir, I have you. I'm doing wonderfully well. I just said in the introduction that you've had a career in law and I'm sure you've spoken about it as many years as you've been in law. And then you're looking at your dream and you're living a different life. Now, can you give us just a short recap? And then I'm gonna take you down What might be memory lane and maybe take a different angle than what you've you're used to? Sure. I including law school. I was in the law business for 41 years. I'm going back to 1978 when I was graduating from college. Um, I really didn't know what I was going to do with my life. I am going to liberal arts school. It was a great school, but they focus on what came next and during my senior year, kind of hits you in the face that you need to figure out something to do, and I was struggling with that. So I took a year off and worked I A forklift particularly. Well, e a Well, we're gonna We're gonna jump into those things. And I heard some of those things, but I want to even take you even further because I had mentioned that you you're an author. Now you're following your dreams. So I want to get into that because that's I didn't I think it's so important because what I want to show is people getting into the workforce. However they do it and I want to even show people who have retired thinking, reminiscing about their past but what they do to stay active now. So I know you've painted lines. They weren't very straight. You were doing some other things. But what was your very first job, like maybe as a teenager? Very. The very first thing that you did to maybe get out of the house of maica a dime or two. It was a camp counselor, I think, starting when I was 14 or 15 at a summer camp in Connecticut, then my job is just to hurt the other kids around. What? What made you do that? What got you out of the house was that family, was it? That was money. Just money. At 14. 15? Yeah. Did you? So for that first summer, Did you enjoy that? And then did you pursue it the following year? Did not pursue it the following year. The camp kind of closed down. I would have had a steal. Um, e guess I enjoyed it. It was my first working experience. My first, you know, having to report to someone else other than my parents. And I found it. Um, I like hanging out with the kids, and so that part made it enjoyable. America, I'm going to pause here. Just for a second is you're wearing a headpiece, but is your microphone is the microphone on? It? Should be. If you can't hear me, I can take it off. No, I can hear it. Just it doesn't...

...really sound much different if you were wearing a headphone or not. So it's when we take it off, I'll go with computer. Uh, no, its fine, if that's what it is. It just It sounds kind of like it z a little absent any better? No. So it's Are you sure it's plugged in? I mean, we just We kind of started quickly. Okay, That's perfect. That's perfect. I might not even edit this out. I just, you know, one of those things with audio, And it could be it could be just me eso continuing with your job as a camp counselor. What? What avenues Did this start to open in your mind In terms of work and being a responsible young man? Boom. I think the first job really did teach me that in workplace was a boss. And you have to be aware of that. And respectful boss job isn't going to be there if you don't do the things that the boss wants you to do, um, apart from that, you know, like I said, it was really something. I needed money for the coming, uh, clear, and they provided that. That was kind of a lesson from there. I worked every summer, um, through probably part of junior high. How high school for sure. So, up until college did you work during school or Onley? Summer jobs? A little of both during high school for the next year, I started mowing lawns, and that was something that you could dio past the beginning of school because the grass kept growing. Freeze s o. I did that. And then that kind of lets a snow shoveling. There was a guy that had a small step snow shoveling business. And I, a friend, that I worked for him during the winter on the houses that were too small. Wow way did that throughout high school. So with with high school and middle school, did you your friends is well, or people that you grew up with or your neighbors? Were other students going Thio work in the summertime? And did they have jobs? Was that sort of what your neighborhood did? Some did something Most did. There were some bed, as I recall, that did not. I almost did. So I I know this story a bit. And just by me saying it is you weren't sure what you wanted to do. You wanted to go into college. What was what was the drive or you know, And I'm sure how much you want to go to college. But you needed to do something. So what was the drive for college. And what, maybe were you weighing between before you decided what you talk college? I don't recall that there was ever any doubt that I was gonna go to college and there wasn't any doubt. I was going to go immediately after graduating high schools in the gap periods like mhm. Um, the rial issue was where was like, going to go to college and how much my parents support that's related to college. I really wanted to go to college, not right. Lived toe have the experience of the and living on my own on bond. You know, all things being equal, I wanted to see if I could get into the best going to the best school that I could get into. Um, and I folks, true, I remember this. They drew a circle around where we lived, which was about a four hour drive radius. And that was this far away as they thought they could send me. They whites. Andi, that got me toe outside Philadelphia, which was exactly the for our circle e wanna live? I want to go right here. I started putting pins in that circle around schools that were there, Uh e. It's cool. It's interesting you were considering or your parents were considering how much they could afford. But at the same time, you wanted to go to the best school. And usually the best school means most expensive. So they're like, Oh, thank you. Yeah, that's a good idea. We want you to go to the best one. That was the most expensive, I'm sure. Schools, I got a scholarship money. I got work study job there on campus. Awful years, one job or another that helped. Afraid of cost. Check out Stephen Barton. So with that, that's interesting. You bring that up because you're not only going to school, but you're considering your parents and you're actually working and putting that money towards maybe books or your food. You're you're...

...helping and you're contributing to your own education. Correct is did your parents recognize that it's something Or were they saying no, no, no, no. We can do it. Or were you just trying to help ease their burden? I think the mom and the dad had different reactions. The mom expected some assistance from me and my dad. I think, uh, there's always a view that he wished he could just bring all of it. I e or that e I had actually some fun jobs in college so that those jobs were probably better than things I was doing this high school. So how did the transfer you're taking law? How did you are not taking law at first? You So that's interesting looking forward because that's where you ended up. Sure, right. So how did the pre law come into play? Um, never graduated from college without a plan on and spent my next year doing These are jobs that walk. At some point, I woke up and I said that jobs were fine, but I don't know that that's what I'm gonna be doing 20 years from now. So I got better and I could come up with a better plan. Andi failed and decided that I would do a lot of kids that are on the way to Boston take, uh, entry test called the LSATs and go to law school and kick the can down for three years while they continue to figure out. Do I went to law school? Never. For people intending. It's interesting just kicking the can down the road I don't want in law school. It's not. It's not like, okay, I don't want to go on this picnic. This is into law school. So you obviously kicked the can fire enough to be fully emerged. And after graduating, becoming a lawyer. Is there any particular highlights of your career that you like to, um, let people know about? Because I'd like to push through into how you started to think about your dream and what you would really like to dio career. Lucky for me. Oh, last one which is the oh, and had, you know, people around me Thio work for over with highlights. I became a bankruptcy lawyer by accident because, as I was finishing law school, one of the local bankruptcy judges, three by five, card up in placement office fortune and I was looking for a law clerk for two years, and that was the job I ended up taking so barely having any idea what that was. I was in first season two years. Um and e not only was probably the best job I've ever had, it's often valuable since then, largely because he was amazing a person, but it taught me the bankruptcy code in a way that I would never have able to learn that I'm not. So as I was finishing with him, the oil economy in the United States was tanking 19 3 94. And I began to get calls from our friends in Houston, Texas Way were desperate to hire people that so off we went. And in Houston, E learned a little bit of how to talk taxes in, uh, lot about having good bankruptcy court. You have quite a bit. As far as what? Welcome that That job, that job for me around Houston was very important for restaurant. So when did this spark? I mean, you probably had the same attitude. If you're kicking the can into it, you might have found yourself kicking the can throughout your career, although doing the best job like doing putting your best foot forward each time. But when did the spark in your heart really start to ignite about? You know, maybe that liberal arts degree that I was pursuing or this different side of me needs to flourish, especially if I'm coming to the end of my career. That's something in my life. 38 years of law firms that came and went, and it was kind of a fight to stuff that feelings back into that place where I don't have to deal with him very often, but they...

...would surface a times and surface, and then I couldn't put him away. So I like to say that I had numerous midlife crises as I went through my lock career, which which was really not so much a lot of crisis as the desire to do something else publicly to the surface. And Joe, um, it happened. I think the first time it really came to the surface when I couldn't put it away was I think I was about 38 years old, and I came up with the idea that I would leave the final practice of long teach in the law school, which is a very complicated process. There's 10 times as many people teaching jobs is there are jobs of them mhm at the law schools and e never got ah, full time teaching gig. I did turn that into a part time teaching bigot, negotiate chances for 14 years, which turns out I do love that So on the back to the feeling I had when I was much younger person that can. I kind of liked hanging around or teaching people that were much under nights, Judaism, and every year they would stay the same age, American years old. So the gap got bigger. It's my money that that big at University of Kansas in many periods of my life hopefully get through. Then I had to go back to the firm funds since. So when did you finally decide to quit? I know 38 years later of practicing boat. How is that transition? Because I've interviewed your episode 51 no one has retired to this point. So it's an interesting point in life, and I think you can shed a lot of light for people who are listening. And what could I dio you know, regardless of if I had a true passion for my job, or I have another passion that I'd like to pursue some dream that always wanted to fulfill. How is that step for you in his first several steps? Yeah, there are the first step Waas. I finally stopped focusing on the notion of just not being a lawyer matter started to focus on what else would I do this next stage of my life? One of the problems of offices? My analysis is that lawyers very quickly I don't think there's nothing else that you do. I have got Thio business. You could see how, uh, in my own thinking for a long, long time, I might have thought I'd love to do something else. But there's nothing like eso. That's the first step. I believe this is one thing experience Second is I hate the word retired e I wanna be is busy in this new part of my life as I waas in law courts. I see things like that. Um e just don't want a lawyer anymore. So, um, lining up a plan how to say age too busy for me, it was very important. Some people retired with the notion that they're gonna figure out later. I think that was driven me crazy. So I set out a detailed idea what dio and then identify what I wanted to dio what I wanted what I always find just to be doing something where I felt like I was giving a supposed to get the focus. Focus is a lawyer. A some point for me and great became measuring my life, my career by what I get and where's get rewards. Question power. But it wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to be able to say Okay, what? I mean, give it to you today because that makes me happy. That is something where I can put a bed at night and say, Yeah, that was good. You don't always get to say that is a lawyer on a night. It's good ableto so. And once I focused on the gift part, I then dipped into the things that I love our music, housing for the city and try to build a new life around those three. What's the time? Succeeded? So when did and how did your book come about? How did that? The book was something that that was the fourth part of the puzzle. I wanted to write something that would perhaps be cathartic about the experience that I...

...have with belief that I'm not the one that goes through this certainly not watches this which you know. But I think in life I think a lot of people stumble into what they do, and then they stay with it because they because anything else they did or they can't figure out how they would change change is difficult. Stupid. It scared Andi. I wanted to write a book that would Some amount of humor would explain how I got to this on, just like that. Essays on a life before, during and after the law. And that was my little joke with myself all those years. How did this happen? I would say is I'm going to bed They and the answer is they're just happened just like that. What's the moment? It just happens. And the book? Uh, I wrote the book for me, although I think many times that's what offers do that right for the for the before story mark before the before part. Did you write any of your book while did you have anything you know on your legal pad? As they say, Written note is a thought, just some ideas. Prior, I wrote things down scratch cards for years, and I never did anything with E. I always thought someday if I ever get out of this business, I'm going to write a book about all of this. So I better start writing these great ideas that I have. No, but most of the book I wrote after I left the practice of law took me about six or eight weeks to move from not going with the law firm anymore to being ableto concentrate enough to sit down. When I left practice of law on that January 2, um, I went into this period of euphoria. I laughed the cocktail parties that when people ask me about this and I said I felt like the guys that supposedly escape from Alcatraz, they actually made it from Alcatraz to San Francisco. It must have been looking over their shoulder the whole time for the U. S. Marshal's coming. After that, I felt like the, you know, the law firm police were going to come and drag back before you. It is not something that lawyers feel very often my experience, And so it consumes. It was a great field, but I kind of have a let it wash out before Tim. Well, not only that, I would think, as the prisoners escape of if they didn't have an exact plan. Once you escape. It's really what direction do I have to go? What is the best direction? And I'm sure there is that as well as you look forward, no matter how good you planned it out, no matter how well you did, no doubt I did. I was able to be given to rehearse myself very quickly after a lot of practice ended, um, with the art organizations and the veterans organization and have attack on DSO. I did have things to do which was correct into my smell. It crazy did at home after I left the practice of law and then try to figure out what? So how do you spend your days now? What keeps you going? How do you stay productive? What? What's on your agenda? So that's different, like it is for some of the people of pre coded. And during Kobe before Kobe, my days were spent, um, going to board meetings, um, looking to general meetings related to the organization's fundraising. So that would involve what's our reaching person? Um, which is very different than client are getting. Yeah. Um and I'm old suits. All of that didn't pursue the Chinese too. Coffee, lunch Um, and that really filled up today. My wife, who works at home, was a little worried about how this was gonna go when I drive her crazy. Once I retired, but I would get up normal pretty full days of all tonight. Spend time, pension. So, uh, that changed during coded for something it has. And so all the in person is non existent on meetings, air zoom and fewer of them because people get some pretty and who is great. But it's not the same as human actions. So my days achieved a bit more on a long time trying to drive it. I'm in the same boat. Try not to drive my dear wife crazy, but I'm so busy, and I started my next book. And did you have pick a title yet for your book? This. The next book is entitled...

Fresh Start, which is a bankruptcy phrase on, but it's a novel about a real estate developer who tries to keep the system. It's fine what what do you find as being not retired, but a change of career after a successful career that is behind you and kind of, you know, the the world is your oyster. In a sense, what is what is difficult about how you spend your days? I mean Cove. It does put a twist in it and trying to stay out of your wife's hair, those sorts of things. But what is what is difficult for you now? A challenge. E managed this now better beginning to turn off part of my personality, which have been receiving me problems decades. I I particular specialty was very contentious practice area by fighting about it, Um, it was hard to turn that off when I came home every night, 30 years I was practicing. And the normal business girl, when I sit on the board, has reduced whatsoever, grabby or snarky or pretentious. And so that turned out to be something that is difficult to manage but absolute necessity and actually better. What's it's like to be that part behind? Um, that was different. The world news, a not for profit world uses a different case than the law business. Um, and sometimes that can be frustrating a project with people, and I say a lot from I could say, Okay, I want you to stay here until we get stuck that way for, you know, to see that, um, quite like that In the not for profit world and perceptions eso a lot of them have to do is just sort of rearranging the way I have lived my life. It's Yeah, I think that would be common for anybody that's changing careers. Has had a career in the business world, maybe moving something else. The world has different parts. Student working. It's not one size fits all Have the just just think so. You had mentioned the difference between not the satisfaction, but how you worked in what I was thinking is maybe it's more of a scorecard. Being a lawyer versus the work that you're doing now in the community and helping out, Could you articulate dissatisfaction or even how much more developed The satisfaction is from your community. Work not not up and against your work is a lawyer. But just how much more fulfilling this might be, especially in encouraging of people, too, not wait their whole career to get involved in the community. If they can, that would be You spend a good portion of your life trying toe pushback on the career, you know that part of your life just critical have a challenges of where the doctor, the engineer. It's not just off business. Um, and there's a really push and pull that you feel like the career is forcing you to do or something restricting their future. Um, but the law business is the only one that I know that I can speak of. Does have a sore part. What? And we're all grains on babies, thanks within the partnership ranks. And then, um, compensated as a result of all of that human grading. Andi, whether you're like this or not, you kind of get dragged into becoming like this starts is shown list and that this has something to do with what you get. Uh huh. There for tends to focus people within the law from a lot, um many, many orders here. Mhm e habitat. In my younger days, you do find a way thio give, but you don't have the freedom. Thio do that. Wow, To disagree wants my real life. Um e literally can feel like some decision. I made some projects and participated in had a few chewable positive effect.

Somebody who eat something bad. So in habitat ing old enough now that I'm not painting houses or things like that. But I'm on the audit finance help on, and whenever you do work on that committee, you're dangerous. I could leave that meeting knowing that that helps put some families into a house. They don't do that. You can apply that knowledge and science and what happens which begin. I want to solve the education problem in America, solve the housing problem. One solved the gang problem solving housing problems. All of the you want families to stay together. It's all of the house, and all of that's true. It's all documented and it all comes home. I see some of the families and kids and families. You just can't hope that feel that in some very small way, I hope. And the message that I've gotten out of that, I like to tell people is that if enough people do small things, lots of great things. No, we, um, spokesperson Jimmy Carter were habitat to affect lives positive. It's important, and it makes you feel good that I've done something that that family. So no, it's a great perspective. You bring on it of having a career and not being able Thio and then almost, you know, like a horse being held back. You're just freed to do what you want. And this is where you're finding a true love of helping others. What is it? It might be in your community service or in being an author. Now that you like people to understand. I mean, I could ask about being a lawyer, but I think you know, in this stage of your life and what you're doing and you're able to do what would you like people to understand So they can appreciate either. And if they get into this position or just you specifically about what you do, what would you like? People to understand? So it's, um, listening to one of my favorite eagles with the other day. Uh, yeah, and there's a song I already gone. And the quote is so often times it happens that we live our lives and changes and humility. Yeah, e I always loved, but I didn't know I loved it. Now I know I e one of those. Wow, It's still significant standing. It's your head. Well, I don't I think, Yeah, but this is a positive. I think that people saw themselves short with a career. If you don't see yeah, we're in harsh. Think they saw themselves short? They think they're doing. I think, yeah, that life is all about identifying options and maybe you're projecting them. But knowing that there's always something else you could do not locked, it might take work. It might take time. It might take for your education, but Thio go through life. I think there's nothing. Once I could do this kind of sad to go through life and know that we have lots of possibilities. Okay, Yeah, there's lots of people that live like that. There's there's no doubt about it. And you can see it on their faces, their countenance and how they carry themselves. And and and understandably so, if you believe that's the only option you have, right, like you could then have empathy understanding. Okay, well, I understand why you feel like that because you think that the world is collapsing on your head. How is it that you stay productive? How do you keep what I mean? It might be motivating to tell your wife's town. You get out of the house, so you gotta do something. But how do you stay productive? What is what is that? Dr. So far, I don't have any problem getting a today about. Sometimes others planned my day because I had sorry against my organization s o some of my life. Like my life. My dates are five reputations that I'm, um uh there's there's a memory. I have my dad that also kind of drives me, Have way to stay busy And that my dad, at some point, he retired. Um, sat in front of the TV with remote control, and I like to say, seem to be sitting there just waiting to die eventually.

Yeah, um and I don't want to do that. It scares me to think that, uh, people were involved in troubles. Um, be there, Uh, my father passed away. It was felt like he can't keep up. Yeah, and, uh, I don't want people. So as long as I have the energy and with dr which way I have, but, um, I don't think there's any problem and have structure. It's It's a vivid picture. And I think we all have people in our lives that maybe spending too much time in front of the TV and just not being productive. And it's a good It's a good kick toe. Let us know that, you know, there's there's other things that's the for far spectrum. And maybe you find yourself that you are overworking yourself, right? Trying to overcompensate, but trying to figure that out in between. What is something that you cannot go without? What is a favorite tool? Like I mentioned a legal pad, probably when you're a lawyer. But what is something? A tool that you use now that just you couldn't see yourself living without in your work? Um, our in my life. But the tool that I go thio is either my camera right scheduled time was happening or my guitar. Okay, when did you first pick? When did you first pick up the guitar? The guitar was probably when I was about Okay, this has been 40. Yeah, eso I'm taking online classes. Sure, cause I'm always wanted to do that the last with a camera, because that I was pretty busy, but I need to different sporting events. Thio photograph. Uh, shut down. Uh, one of the sports that I loved photographing with soccer as we opened. So I have What about four matches in the last month. But it was an outbreak. Alright of rapid. So they're locked down for the next several weeks with yeah, that comes with the overhang of so thinking of the audience that will listen. And people like yourself when you first got into work. You know, it could be, uh, the summer program or painting lines. Is there a top tip you have for people who like yourself changing careers as well? But getting into work or changing into a different job, some sort of thing that you think that it would have been helpful to know when you were doing the same thing? Yeah. E always had this film. Um, right now, uh, should be rejected, and I was something wrong with me. Figure out what? And if it cause me to worry a whole bunch of when I was 21 17 years old, um, really through until E got the job. Judge, it's not you. Um I think that the process being a teenager and figuring out soon and then trying to figure out when you're in college in such a young age. Um, you have to figure out that moment. Um and, uh, not only can be done to him, but it which it should be encouraged to think that they don't have necessarily have that all figured out. It's okay. It's okay to try things. Yeah, it's okay. Thio change. And it's okay to start to do something that may not while you trying t o. I know that when it came time for our son toe have this part of his life, which was 56 years ago. I struggled and then one with myself. I struggled mightily to not say that you? Yeah. Andi, I don't think I said that to once, and we figured it out. And without somebody...

...suggesting taking up that you don't know what you want to do in 1919 I think, please. Well, it's interesting. I teach English here in South Korea, and it's a question that you're almost forced to ask in conversational English, especially these kids. What do you want to be when you grow up? How much pressure is that? You're 14 years old. What do you wanna be? Oh, I have an answer. That Zatz something that maybe some of the fire generations and codes that maybe not. Not today, Mark. You kind of touched on some things of learning, but is there a mistake that you made that has taught you some of the greatest lessons that you could move forward with? Yeah, Okay. Dozens, maybe hundreds of mistakes that I've made in life that hopefully I've learned. Hopefully I've learned for each of them e spent, spent a lot of time dreaming. And sometimes the wacko dreams kids streams. Kid, um, I had this idea that secure, all right, got into the photography. I had this idea that I would to show up in the first step of the New York Times in the Air Yankees 160 years. Uh, yeah. Um I don't think the comedian was a mistake. It was just perhaps a mistake Thio about still said, and it's the New York Times. But, you know, where's make six all the time. You We call the time to set strategy. It should be 10 different things. And so hopefully you get experienced enough that you were often not quite strategy. This city with a client is not his manager. Um it's gonna happen will be revenge. Could you speak upon your value of education? I mean, you have an interesting path. We're not knowing what you want to do. You switched from one degree to another and then even mentioning your son of allowing him the freedom to kind of choose what it is. He wanted having great parents yourself. Who said, You know, they even gave you wiggle room to kind of choose and do what you want it by even giving location in a little bit of money to help. Can you comment on your value of education and doesn't need to be formal education? It could be. You know, as you said, you're taking an online class to learn the guitar so that, you know, some sort of or even hands on trade sort of thing. Yeah. Um, well, some formal education, I believe that's the most important. You know, it's I don't see your city schools, crops, tools, school and some how for college Executive radio. E did, um and you have a free open the door for me to get into law school and t a great degree just saying that I want to have a friend is opening doors up for jobs in the office and squaring you were so I only Yeah. So to me, uh, value a good education through college. What kids and faces. Um, you know, the on the job. In the midst of life, treating is equally his craziest. Some of the jobs in my hand. I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Yeah. Why this talking things that I e interacting with? People that good put on life struggling okay to and want the case? They had an education. Want to figure out many of them at the forklift job? No. It's the first generation Americans on people ever wonder what value? So popular treatments get a job for six...

...months. People that are here for that much. It's trying toe access. It's it's quite education. Mark, can you, in terms off my audience, offer any advice or some encouragement in the position they find themselves? You know, some grandfather father is asking their kid what you gonna do, son? You know the moms like, Okay, well, you better be a doctor. You better be a lawyer. You know those pressures that get put on or someone that's finding themselves in a job that they really don't like. Um, even someone that's approaching retirement and they're taking As you said, you're not fond of the word, but, you know, they they're scared. I mean, maybe you even could speak of the apprehension of retirement, and Okay, well, what am I now? And just some words of encouragement for people along that path. Eso What I've learned about this whole process is that I don't I didn't have the skill set to do this myself. Um, I look back on all of the years that I was a warrior thinking about something else. And so self family, improving it myself. Skill set. So and it turns out that there are ways you could get help to do this. Um, I read a bunch of books a lot of the booth on that next season of your life, and I didn't you know, they're great. It looks fine. But I didn't get that much out of him. And then finally, some a lot of books. Um, that really eight cents to be andi that was called Texas E read the book and has been called the author of his house and a You're a Funny and I asked him if his colleagues her Hopefully we're they think they are, and they hadn't. But they were willing thio on the water. So they helped me. What's the structure process? And it's very structured. All the deals from that they got something. How I want to do is figure out something else is good, Um, as opposed to somebody that helps on these issues for and actually knows how to put through the process. And there's many, many sports all over tree Onda community. That that was that was, uh, that that was hate that I start to figure out what I wanted to do rather than just Alice about how this is not. What? Yeah, I think a lot of people lack including myself. Is the structure necessary? I liked him to move, move through. Yeah, yeah, that Zinn process, this process and it does require a organization that I yeah, and it's it's great advice because people need to recognize that your normal and not knowing what to do, but you need to build upon it and get that process going, and you build your structure and a team of people. I mean, it could be a team of one just to recognize that you need the help. And And they could offer something that you know, a different angle, a different perspective. Mark. Yeah. Yeah. Outside of your regular realm, how can people reach you? Mr. Shaken, my Web page market, chicken officer. And I don't need you to. It's about reading. Uh, people are my family list and trying to stay in touch with E. I'm doing a podcast. You are? I Then they, uh Well, Mr Shaken, I have one more question for you. I have appreciated this conversation. Why do you work? Why do you like that? Well, sure, because I needed money. Um, what was the reason? And eventually I worked because I found something that I was I keep putting this. Now I find step that the tree mark shaken from...

...lawyer to author to humanitarian helping people wherever you can. I think you're an inspiration to show that hard work from the beginning all the way through. There is no real retirement. We just keep on going, keeping the remote control out of our hand and working fourth and putting back into society. I truly appreciate you taking the time here today. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of why we work with Brian V. Be sure to subscribe, Follow and share with others so they too can be encouraged in their work. I hope that you have yourself a productive, joyful day in your work.

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