WhyWeWork BrianVee
WhyWeWork BrianVee

Episode 93 · 1 year ago

#93 Deborah Mourey - An Authentic Human's Guide to Finding Meaningful Work - BrianVee WhyWeWork

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Deborah "Debbie" Mourey is an author and her most recent book is entitled, "An Authentic Human's Guide to Finding Meaningful Work". Debbie has created a guide to help people relieve their frustrations by putting them on a path which suites their values, skills, and abilities, and by putting thoughts into action, with a goal in mind and purpose at heart.

Contact Info

Authentic Meaningful Work
https://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Humans-Guide-Finding-Meaningful/dp/0578757842

Deborah’s Profile
linkedin.com/in/deborahmourey

Websites
authenticmeaningfulwork.com/ (Company Website)
hellinthehallway.net (Blog)

Twitter
dmourey

About

"An Authentic Human's Guide to Finding Meaningful Work

Written for millennials and Gen Z's, a practical, gender neutral exploration of ideas to help us on our journey to find work that fuels us, body and soul.
My expertise is in digital marketing and entrepreneurship. My verticals are digital media and health care. I am particularly interested in how millennial and Gen Z's are coping with the myriad of changes and challenges they face.


Activities/Affiliations
- Oregon State University, Accelerator Advisor

Specialties: Social Media, Strategic Marketing Planning, Strategic Planning, Marketing Communications, Published author. Teaching Certification. French and German, minimal Spanish" (LinkedIn, 2021)

...welcome to why we work with your host, Brian V. As he speaks to people like you from all over the world as we together dive deeper into our motivations, struggles, joys, seemingly missteps, hopes, warnings and advice which would be an encouragement to us all to get up. Get going on. Keep on working. Working is tough, but working is good. Now here is your host to why we work. Brian V. I'm Brian V. And this is why we work today. At the great pleasure of speaking with Debbie. Maury, Debbie is the author of Unauthentic Humans Guide to Meaningful Work Today I want to find out what are some struggles, some frustrations people have in their work. And how can we get over them to find meaningful work? What is meaningful work? And how can people thrive in their work? Join me in my conversation today with Debbie Mori. I'm Brian V and this is why we work today. Have the great pleasure speaking with Deborah. Maury. Good day. Fine lady. Good day, sir. Across the pond it is across the way over here in South Korea and you're in the States. Thank you for coming on I appreciate you giving me the time. There was something that I want to start doing now is just saying what industry are you in? And what is it that you're doing now? Good question. Eso Right now, what I'm doing is, uh, working to generate a conversation among millennials and Gen z's about meaningful work but authentic meaningful work because I talked to a lot of young people over the years and what I heard from them Waas I feel like a number at work. I took a job. I hated the I like the job itself, but the culture of the company was lame and I felt like a number like I didn't matter at all and I need money and I need a job. But what can I You know, I don't know what to do. And I said, Well, what questions do you ask during the interview process? And they said, you know, to find out if the culture is good and they say, I don't know, you know, and stuff like that. So that's what I'm really doing. Uh, the book is there. I'm not really out to sell books. I'm really out to change the conversation about meaningful work for for Jen's Ys and millennials because I think things have changed so much that they get so much bad advice that you know, let's change the conversation So it's kind of a kind of a lofty goal, but you're authentic. Guide your humans guide to meaningful work is a guide. It's a good, handy book for people, toe have and carry along as they change careers. So while you're not touting it, I think it's it's good for people toe to grab hold of and they can get that. And speaking of that, you I must how nice and kind you are. And I know that by our few interactions, and one thing in particular is of the 90 something interviews that I have done. You are the first person to send me something for free. You sent me your book, and I have interviewed many people who have books and it's not a knock on them. But it was just like one of those first things starting my podcast six months ago or something. It was just I'm like, I didn't ask for it, but you were just kind to give it and you and you're not even saying about your book. So it was just like you're, like here that this might be good for you to dio and how we met. And you're like, Hey, maybe we could talk sometime and you weren't looking to be interviewed, So I just wanted to say how how kind and generous you must be Teoh. You know, give something to a full like myself. Oh, well, you're You're very sweet to say that. And I have thrilled to be here. Anything I could do to help change the conversation is what I'm all about. So I see you doing something fun and cool and, you know, doing your thing. And I want to say I always support that, like people just doing what they can and figuring out how to do, you know, jump in there, that it takes guts, t just start something like what you've done here. So congratulations on that. I think it's a good conversation for people to be having, whether it's for people who are older or younger, no matter who it is. It's a it's a good conversation. Debbie, could you bring us back what would have been your very first job. The first job that you had as a teenager, something that got you out of the house to make a dollar. Well, the one I talk about is, um I worked at this dry cleaning place for two weeks,...

...and I was probably maybe 14 or 15, and it was right near my house and so I could walk over there, and it was It was so hard. It smelled so bad. I thought, How could anybody work here? It's you're gonna just, like, you know, you're gonna die of, you know, some kind of terrible exposure. Yeah, So that didn't last long. Um, why after that, why did you get that at 14? That I mean, that's the kind of the average age North American age of getting a job doing something. Yeah. You know, my my parents were alcoholics, and so I had, you know, I mean, uh, people say I have, you know, some people have it better. Some people had it worse than me, but it the good thing about it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. But the good thing about it Waas it, uh, caused me to be very independent. And so I had already been working Summers, uh, doing what's called being a mother's helper, which is like a nanny job. And I had already been doing that and living away from home from when I was 11, so I'd already been spending summers away from home three entire summer. And so then I came back, and I was We had just moved to a new town. I moved three times when I was in high school. I went to three different high schools s Oh, you know, I thought I would try to see if I could get some money, and I didn't work out very well. E was. Debbie was speaking to someone yesterday, an interview with Ron Love it, and he mentioned about some kind of hard upbringing and that he realized there was three, at least in his mind, three stages of why he did the things he did. And when he first got a job, the first one was to escape, Get out of the home, right to just go do something different. And then, as you got a little bit older and he started to gain some traction in his work, it was kind of to prove two people, you know, I can do this or look at me or whatever. And then as you got a family and he was more successful and more grounded, it was to excel and thio to provide. Do you find that is somewhat true? There may be mawr less, but do you find that true to be the case? Absolutely. I mean, I've never heard it articulated that way, so he's a smart guy, but absolutely, I would say escape, Um, a little bit of maybe it was for myself, but, you know, I could do this and then yeah, to do, to, to provide and also to to shine. I would say for myself t to make that journey worthwhile for me. That's what I wanted. Um, I didn't want anybody, but the good news about being independent is it permeated my whole life. So when people said, Oh, you can't do that, I would be like, Yeah, I can and you do it your way and I'm doing it my way. So, you know, whatever. So I I didn't have to listen to people's bad advice. I didn't get much bad advice because nobody talked Thio. It could be bad. It could be bad advice in itself. Nothing. Yeah, well, but, you know, you find your way. I found my way. Eso It's interesting thing. How did you keep progressing in your work? So you were doing being a nanny, then you're working at the dry cleaner. Where did that bring you? In terms of schooling in high school, maybe. Um, yeah. So in high school, I didn't, uh I didn't work during the school year, but in the summers I used to go. I was from Massachusetts and we moved to Florida. That's where I spent the last two years of high school or a year and a half or whatever. And so in the summers, I would work full time live on Cape Cod. I lived in a rooming house, uh, like a boarding house. But there was no food there. I had a little hot plate, and I would, you know, cook up my soup in my chef Boyardee or with and I worked as a chambermaid. I worked at Dunkin Donuts. I worked at a whole bunch of jobs like that to save money for during the school year. So what we're saving for, um just to have spending money during the during the school year. Um, was this starting to mold and shape your idea for life after high school? Were you thinking college? Were you wanting Thio get on a certain career path? Yeah. I always wanted to be a French teacher. I was so certain I was going to be a French teacher. You could not have knocked me off that pedestal with anything. I was bronzed into that position. And so I went to call I went Toe Community College and then I worked three jobs and saved. I saved $900.900 dollars. I bought a $200 plane ticket on Air Icelandic to go to Europe and to fly back. And then I had $700 and I spent four months in Europe hitchhiking around and going around to a bunch of countries and improved my French quite a bit. And then I went to University of Massachusetts when I came back, I tried...

...student teaching in my very last semester at school, and I loved the school. I love the kids. What I didn't like was the teacher's lounge and the whole, uh so the way the teachers talked about students, it made me Yes. You know, this This kid's a bad kid, and that kid sister is a You know, Bob, I was like, I just It wasn't for me. And so now my whole dream of being a French teacher kind of went up in small a bit smoke, knowing that you did actually go into teaching. Eventually you're associate teacher. And yes, So the idea of teaching didn't leave. Was it just specifically of that sort of school and the idea of maybe this is more second language or French sports Sort of aspect of how teachers look at their students Or how did you differentiate between the two? Yeah. I mean, I didn't I just said, you know, I don't love French this much, you know? And what am I gonna be when I grow up the curriculum person? I mean, I don't I don't know. In my sort of unsophisticated brain, I just said, this isn't gonna work for me. And by the way, I was on the seven year plan for college. So it took me a long time. And so I wasn't. I wasn't, You know, 20 years old, when I graduated, I was 25 or 26 years old. Andi, I just said, you know, I'm not gonna do this. And in the meantime, I had worked at the university library. So that's how I got on my library career. Just going back a bit, because I am an E s l teacher, not of not a very good one. But is it that you found it was more of French specifically that they were the teachers were these were English speaking people that were nagging on, you know, complaining about their their students. What was what was all the teachers? So you go into the teachers lounge and there's a math teacher in the English teacher, and, um, you know, maybe it was just that school. I don't know, but because I didn't go, I didn't pursue secondary education after that, but I I just you know, it was just the atmosphere of it felt completely claustrophobic to me and and not fun and not generous of spirit very much so. And I find that here, too. So but I thought maybe it's just a second language thing but I think it's generally speaking a lot of a lot of those lounges. So where did where did your path your career path start to lean towards them? Yeah. So I had worked in at the university library, which I absolutely adored, because here you're in this gigantic university library. And all day long, all I could see was books, books, books and more books. And I was in heaven, particularly art books and all. I just I'm just fell in love with everything. So, um what? I finished my undergrad degree. I said, Okay, I think I'll I think I'll stay stick around and work in the library for another year. And I lasted about maybe six months. And then I decided to go to a library school because I saw that it was a one year master's degree. It wasn't that expensive. And I could get a master's degree, which is a good box to check for people, uh, French and German, French and German. Yeah, s o I. It was wonderful. I liked library school. I It took me a couple of years to get through because I went part time, but I know it sounds funny people say, Well, you don't seem like a library. And people should always say You don't seem like a library. And I'm like, Well, this is what a library and looks like So get over yourself. You know, it's like, Just stop with your stereotypes. I love librarians. I mean, I think I think movies kind of don't do librarians justice. Thank you. I've come across Ah, lot of librarians that were just the best of people are most willing to help. I mean, one. If they had any edge about them, I would understand because they had to deal with idiots like me. Where do I find this book? Right, so but always great. I couldn't now that you say that I was thinking of my undergrad where I went to school and those they were just so willing to help. And I'm sure you know, they have whole story to tell there more than just what is perceived as being a librarian. Yeah. I mean, as a rule, they're very curious, intelligent people. So they're fun to be around for me because I I like that I like that kind of brainiac kind of people. They well I would feel smart. I liked the interaction that I have with them, and generally they're pretty lighthearted and pretty, pretty fun. So I felt fortunate, and I could afford to go to that master's program. I could afford to pay for it myself. So that was the other thing. So where did this take you after you finish your masters degree? So I actually got engaged and moved from where I was living to Rochester, New York. Uh, and I got engaged to my ex husband and my kids.

Dad and I started, uh, just doing whatever I could to earn money there. And I had a job interview at a big Fortune 25 company called Eastman Kodak Company. If anybody knows about Rochester, that's the big film company, and I had an interview there for They were creating a library, and I interviewed for the job, and it took about six months. But the job finally came around, and so that's where I went. I went to work a setting up this library and this big division of consultants for Eastman Kodak Company, and I went from like it's like being from, you know, Hooterville or some place in the boonies to, you know, being dropped into the middle of New York City. I mean, now it's, you know, this is this is the big time that the big boys were playing here. There's very few women managers. I'm a manager, I have a staff of four, and I'm just some kid, and they're like, they don't know what to do with me. But Kodak, until that time had wasn't really hiring what they call experience tires. They would hire people right out of school. So you have an undergrad, whatever it was industrial engineer, whatever it was, and they bring them along the Kodak way. And so they started. When I went there, they they started having doing what they called hiring people who had experienced. And for them, it was a culture shock because I wasn't gonna listen to anybody talked nonsense to me, And I certainly was I would follow the rules to a certain extent, but they really didn't know what to do with me. They were very like, Oh, we hired her and and they wouldn't never fire somebody who was who was doing their job and doing a good job on I think there were also there might have been quotas then where they had thio reach a certain number of female employees and managers. I remember one time when I was pregnant with Jenna, my daughter, um, I walked into a big meeting, you know, 2025 2025 men. And my boss, who was running the meeting, said, Oh, can we count Deb is to for, well, opportunity. And everybody in the room started laughing. And I'm thinking I took him aside later on I said, You know what? That's not funny. That is not funny, buddy. And he was like, Oh, I thought it was like, No, that wasn't funny. So I didn't take any, you know, shit from anybody. And but it was a wonderful opportunity because there were lots of jobs. There was lots of people to meet. There was great training. Um, it's just that it was like mad men. Uh, that what I saw madman on TV. I still to the state can't watch it because it was so much like where I work with knowing what with the book that you have now in thinking of your career path as you're going along. And even at this point in Kodak, did you have some of this wherewithal to know about your career and what would be make you successful and carving out this way for yourself? Or was this all after the point? Looking back, uh, I would say this one thing that I knew and I don't know how I knew this, but I always wanted to have my own business. So the decisions I was making about what job I took next or what? What I was gonna learn, I wanted to learn things that would help me start my own business. And so being a library, and that didn't give me Give me some managerial skills. So that was great. But I needed finance. I needed marketing. I needed a bunch of things. And I would say to people, You know, I really want to have my own business, and people would say to me, What kind of business could you have? You know, you're just a girl. What can you possibly do? And I'd be like, OK, well, you'll see you, do you I'll do me it. Well, it's wonderful that you say that because I didn't have that foresight to think, you know, this is what I want It therefore, everything I'm doing has a purpose. I kind of just stumbled along. And I think they're you know, people are either one category or the other in that they kind of know there's a there's a goal set before them and they're going to pursue it, even though some rocky points come even though they have to step up some of these ladders. But other people, on the other hand, kind of just stumble through life. And I'm glad you said to have a goal. And so even if you don't have a lot of knowledge, you don't have a lot of experience. You're not sure what you're gonna dio if you have a goal before you set that carrot before you, then that might help you regardless of what you go through to get there. Yeah, and this is what I'm trying to work on with the young people that I do zoom calls with is the, um is for them to think about entrepreneurship as a tool not as an end of in and of itself. So starting a business that isn't the only way Thio Gate build skills. You could build skills in finance or marketing or whatever and think, Well, maybe I'll start a business someday, But you don't...

...ever have to do it in order to have the ability to see a wide base of skills that might be helpful to you. And that's the conversation that I'm having with them. You know, you don't have to start a company to be successful. You can. All your entrepreneurial skills will help you, no matter what you dio. Even if you work inside a big company or a small company, all of those things are gonna help make you a better employee and a happier person because you're gonna have more choices because you've got more skills. Fill up your toolbox in whatever it is you're doing, and exactly you'll be a skilled technician. So what are you doing now, Debbie? And what have you been doing for the last couple of years? Maybe several years in that you're still doing? Yeah, eso I've recently stopped working for Jenna and Julian after eight years, nine years, something like that. Because Jenna decided she was gonna leave the internet. And if anybody is listening that knows about Jenna Marbles. Um, I would say to you, thank you for all your good wishes and she's doing great. And I'm so relieved as her mother that she is doing what she needs to do to take care of herself. So I appreciate everyone honoring her request for, uh, radio silence or just good wishes and leave her be to find her way. Eso But that was really fun for me because not only did I get to help her start her business, but I also got Thio be there for my child while they grew something and and found their creative path to earn money. And so for me, that was that was pure joy, and I got paid for it. I think this also speaks of how kind you are and humble you are, because in our conversations, in our interaction over the last couple weeks, I had no idea one. I had no idea who your daughter was. I said this already, but no offensive to your daughter. I just I'm just not on YouTube a lot to find out those things. And but you never mentioned it all. And it was until yesterday when I was checking out your linked in, I said, Jay Maribel's and like, what is J Marbles? You work for this company? It says on there. And so I checked. Jamie. Oh, okay. And then I saw that she had since stopped doing it. But through that whole time, you never mentioned it. You're not riding on the coattails of your daughter's successes, which I think is useful. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a fame is a very strange thing, And I would say what people say, Oh, what do what she a theater kid in school or whatever. You know, she wasn't. She never started out to do that career. She has a master's degree in sports psychology. So there wasn't anything in daily in the, you know, in her that said, Oh, good, I wanna be I wanna be famous. I wanna have this channel She stumbled into it. Talk about stumbling into things. I mean, she stumbled into it and then, you know, made a video every week that she wrote film, starred in, edited and uploaded every week for almost 10 years by herself. I mean, it's with with only one week off a year which was or two weeks off, which are the the weeks around Christmas. It's an extraordinary thing that she was able to do. So what I knew and what I learned was that what what she did didn't have anything to do with me. I had nothing to do with the creative side of things. I was just there to help her make sure she stayed out of trouble with the law. Not that she was doing anything illegal. But, you know, the more you grow up, the more you realize that the world is can be a difficult place. And you don't You could get yourself in over your head without even knowing it or thinking about it. And that that she collected the money that was owed her. I mean, I was pretty clear about what my job waas. So I I don't I don't take any credit for I mean, I had to raise her and she wasn't an easy kid, believe me. But I used to say, but I give this one food, clothing, shelter and love and get the hell out of her way. That's the way I raised that child. Uh, but So I appreciate you're saying that, but you know what her success is or what she does or whatever. That's completely on her. And so I'm here to do my thing. I just had a very go ahead. I've had a very nice compliment from somebody who was on one of the one of the zoom calls that ideo and she's from I forget where she's from. I've had people from Greece, uh, Austria, Finland, Brazil, all over the world, these people are calling in and just having a chat about meaningful work and what it means to them. Um, but she said, Oh, your daughter Help me get through these first, you know, my first years And now I'm picking your your like, you know, you're picking up the gauntlet, and now I'm gonna I'm gonna help you. You're gonna help me get through these next years. And I was just so touched by that because I thought, you know, if I could be of service, that's that's why I'm here. That's I mean, not. I know not everybody feels that way, and that's completely fine. But for me, that's what I'm doing here is to see how I can be of service to other people while I'm having a lot of fun, by the way, and...

...scream. So for Maury Consulting. Are you still doing that as well? No, no, to Yeah, Yeah, I I gave that up. I should have taken the stuff down. I finally did, but, uh, no, I I loved being a consultant. And what I particularly liked Waas I loved being able to pick my own customers. So there was a customer I didn't like. I would triple my day rate or triple by how much I charged. And, you know, inevitably, I don't I didn't had women clients, but inevitably, the person I didn't wanna work for was a guy I don't mean That's just my very limited experience. And I would say, Oh, yeah, my day rate is, you know, $6000 a day or whatever, whatever. Whatever. Whatever, you know. And he was like, Wow, you get that. I'm like, yes, I do. And they pay it up front, And he would say either Okay. And, you know, off to the races we go. But I wanted to make sure that if if if they were gonna work, if I was gonna do work for them. It was I was gonna make it worth my while because I could tell right away that we're gonna be a pain in the, you know, But yeah. Since you stepped away from those two positions, what is it that you're doing now to stay busy in your work? Yeah. So, really, the book is taking all my time right now. I'm just getting ready to do the audio book. Because early on, when I launched the book, people said, Oh, I'm a d h d. I don't think I can sit and read the book on I said, Well, what if I made an audio book and they said, Oh, great, that'd be great. So, of course, being a rookie at all these things, everything takes longer than one might think. Eso I have found somebody and I haven't started recording yet, but I am going to record it myself because I thought I just wanna I want people to hear my voice saying You can do this. You can do it. You can You can be okay. Just keep going and believe in yourself. And don't listen to these people who tell you the stupidest things you've ever heard, Even though you haven't started recording. Do you know anything about that process? Well, I do now, because the reason I got this set up here is because I'm getting ready to do that. And, uh, I my editor, uh, pointed me in the direction of a company that does remote audio book production. And while I'm not gonna use their services in a typical way because I probably an advanced in some ways and I'm also less fussy because I think my audience is less fussy than some other people. Uh, if I repeat sentences because I think they're important and I want somebody who's auditory Aly processing that so they hear it twice because I think it's important I could do that. So I am learning about it. And I'm reading the book out loud for like, the 10th time because I had to read through it 10 times, you know, at least nine times or whatever took when I went through the editing process. Eso I'm reading it out loud for the with the idea that I'm going to record it, and it's a It's a different process of reading it out loud for being ready to record it, then looking for mistakes or changes or whatever. I was just wondering the process myself. I've interviewed several voiceover actors who they even they find their work online doing voice over work, and they have their own studios in their home. Good microphone, a little bit of ah, treated room, those sorts of things and I never really asked about. Especially you. It's your baby, your book wondering, You know, you read a good sentence. You move on to the Is it you stumble, you go back a paragraph. Is it a whole page that you would do those sorts of things? So when you get into it, I'd like to know how it works. So, yeah, I I think it's really interesting thing now. They don't recommend most people read their own books for lots of reasons. But they said, if it's ah if it's an autobiography or if it's whatever And so they said, Yeah, we think it would be good if you read it just because the audience for the book tends to be younger people. I have 50,000 Twitter followers now in and of itself, That doesn't mean anything, but I have. I have good engagement there. So people know me. That's how I've sold as many books as I've sold because I published it myself because I was not going to have some publisher. I mean, I've already established that I'm not gonna listen. Thio Jackasses. Right? So, um yeah, so? So I knew I had to publish the book myself because I was never going to say, somebody said, Well, this will sell more books. So you should include this like, No, we're not doing that. Um, so but But again, my goal isn't to sell books. My goal is to see if we can change the conversation and use the book. The good thing? One of the This is a couple of things about the book. Go there. Now. What is that? There's case studies in the book that are my friends. They're all people that I know well and who have such a inspiring stories. And I love that. And so those case studies are really...

...wonderful because they're real people who really made decisions and kind of what you were talking about. Which is how did they come to those when they when those crossroads came, How did they make that decision to go in that direction on their all in that age group millennials on Jen z's than the other thing? Is that the end of each chapter? There's a called a You work it section where people can actually work on their own way of thinking about things and take, and it's hard to think. Okay, what am I going to do when I don't know what my choices are? That's the way I came up. With what? How how did how to develop the exercises. So this helps you to get your mind up. But then I realized that the missing piece is How could we have a conversation among us and not even not so much, including me, but including these young people. How can they have conversations with their peers so they can support each other? Because that's what people need. I mean, you started this podcast, dick. Did somebody say to you, Hey, Brian, you ought to have a podcast. Absolutely not right. But somehow you found your way to do it, so I think we could make it a little bit easier on people. If we were encouraging and listening to each other, talk about, you know, stumble upon something. I just had a woman in one of the calls and she was doing one thing. I don't remember offhand what it waas. She's from Philadelphia and she said while she was working through the stuff, the exercises in the book, she said, Oh, you know what? I've been, uh, monitoring and paying attention Thio VR equipment for about eight years and I loved it. I loved doing it and she has a podcast, and she's been doing this other thing that she said, I'm gonna abandon that because it's not going anywhere. And I'm going to start doing something different with this knowledge and enthusiasm that I have for VR technology of virtual reality technology. And I thought, you know, she was so excited she when she got on the college like, Oh, I was here last time and I'm gonna like it's wonderful, right? It's, like, so exciting because she's finding her way. It doesn't have. I mean, it has sort of the Buddhist thing. It has everything to do with me and nothing to do with me. I don't take credit for that. She's the one who deserves the credit for it. But it's very exciting to bear witness to people finding their way through that dark alleys of trying to find meaningful. Well, it's it's true by me. Doing this is well, I've had several people ask me before and after the interview of how they could start a podcast because they have this idea wonderful. And if you could just be there for some to listen to what it is they talking about? What their idea, that's just starting thio bud and to grow and to be an encouragement for people. It's no matter, because I find, you know, talking about hard times. A lot of people don't have that at home. They don't have the people to talk to the bounce ideas off of. But there's lots of people, especially with the Internet, right? Lots of people out there that are willing to listen to offer feedback or at least give some advice. But you even I think it's in Chapter one of good advice, bad advice, bad advice, bad intentions or good intentions, Bad advice, bad advice, good intentions is the idea that there's lots of information for us. We have to be the ones. And I like how you do that. You work at the application part of it to get people going and and to give them some focus and to lead them in the right way. And they can do with it what they will. Exactly. Exactly. That's the important part. Excuse me. And somebody said, Oh, well, you know what? What should I dio? And I'm like, You will know what to dio. You have to know yourself and then you will know what to do. Just trust yourself. Believe in yourself. And if you don't, I will believe in you. So just keep going and you'll figure it out. I mean, look at what we look at where you found yourself. It's so fun to see you doing something so cool, you know? And I said, Wow, he lives in South Korea. I mean, that that's that's amazing. And he's doing this work to support people as they look around for their journey. So it's I appreciate it. I really do. Brian. Thank you, Debbie. What? What made you pick up the pen, the proverbial pen, or start typing to start this book. I had another book that I had started. I've been a writer for many years and I had another book that I started and it was for teenagers on looking How on their journey. I don't know what made me write even that book, but set that side that book aside And then one of the things I've done throughout my career as a side uh, gig? No, not not paid. Most of it is Thio, Mentor people. I've been a mentor for men and women and including almost all the people who have case studies in the book. And when I told them, uh that I was thinking...

...about writing a book, but I wasn't sure I really had anything to say, or did I have anything to say that would really matter to people? They were all laughing like each one of them laughed and said, Look, here we are. We've been on this journey for 89 years, however long I've known them, and you know, you helped me so much and I said, Oh, I know I have, but you know, you've helped me, too. I mean, it's not being a good mentor. It is not a one way street, so it's People don't understand how rewarding it is to just listen to somebody. I mean, I don't think I've given. I don't give any advice or I may say, Well, this is what I think, But you need to take it or leave it because it may not be right for you. So mostly people just need somebody to listen to them and hear themselves say it out loud. So I've been a business coach for a long time. I did get paid for that work. And most business owners, they just need somebody. They just need to say it out loud to somebody and have somebody who has some experience with business say, Well, have you paid attention to cash flow lately or, you know, how are you getting new customers? I think good mentorship is all about asking good questions, Not not a teacher in the same way I used to teach grad school, and I would be like these people don't really want to sit here and listen to me blather on about blah, blah, blah, blah. I can set a course for learning. They will teach each other everything and that's one of the things I'm finding on. These zoom calls is that people are from all over the world. We do have English as a common language, but they're teaching each other. I don't need to E mei, you know, throw in a story or whatever, but they're teaching each other. How is supporting each other in that journey? So to me, that's the most exciting thing because nobody needs a teacher to stand up there and lie and lie and lie and lie. It's like who could take it? I can't take it. That's why I like doing this, too. Is getting people who have various and actually someone the same guy yesterday said this. There's two types of people in the world people that came up and there's people who came up over, down and around. And he said, He's the ladder and I agree with him. I am a swell because with this with work, it doesn't matter who I'm speaking with, the garbage man or the CEO or what Whoever it is, everyone has some insightful wisdom to impart to listeners, and I don't have to say sit here and say, Well, listen to me. It's not a one person podcast. Look how this is what you should be. Oh, but listen to all these people with all these wonderful experience, you conclude in something from each and every one of the Yeah, Yeah, I came Teoh. One of the things that one of the one of the chapters is about boss shopping. And, you know, this is a concept that a lot of people What? I talked about it before I wrote the book there. Like I never heard of that before. And I said, Well, I don't think I invented it, but I I embraced it. Let's put it that way. So my idea was I'm not gonna go look for a job. I'm going to go look for a person toe work for that who I think is a good person. Toe learn from, and I don't have to. They don't have to be my friend. Probably better if they're not my friend. Uh, I can just goto work, and whatever the job is is less important than what I'm gonna learn while I work with them. It's there. What I look for is their integrity, their respect for people, and then some. Some knowledge base that I would like to be, you know, to have imparted to me in some way that is meaningful to them, because I will. You know, my brain will sift through it and do whatever. So I stopped looking, you know, for a job and started looking for a boss. And it paid off unbelievably well. And ending up with my last boss was my child. And I would say not that we didn't walked tread carefully down that path. But, you know, she was a wonderful boss. So I haven't had a bad boss. Including myself. Was my own boss. You're your own boss, right? So if something goes wrong, I know where the buck stops. There's no nobody else to blame. It's May I? I did it. Whatever. Whatever the decision was, I did it. So you kind of touched upon this, but you just mentioned meaningful. So what is meaningful work? How do you define that for people? So it's It's such a broad and complex topic because it's individual. But how do you find it? Well, I don't think I really defined it in the book, but what I what I think Is that the reason why it's hard to find meaningful work? Is that what's meaningful to you? You may not be meaningful to me, likely isn't. That doesn't mean we don't share common values of respect or integrity. But how I'm gonna what I bring to the table. Excuse me? Well, you know my, my upbringing, my education, my culture, my religion, my family. All of these things shape us into a person. And then we have experiences, whether their job...

...or life or whatever. And when you put those things together, that's where the path starts, and that's where the path goes from. So the reason why there's no formula for finding meaningful work, aside from the one that I kind of made up for the book is it's going to be up to you to figure that out. And there's a lot of books written about. Follow your purpose. Follow your passion. Follow this. Follow that, and I'm not against any of that. I think purpose is probably as good a thing as any but passion or purpose. If you can't make a living doing it, what what good is it right? And if you can't earn money doing it. What good is it Thio to pursue it, Uh, in hopes that you're gonna make money because you need to eat. So, uh, I think you just That's why I said it looks like your values and then your skills. And then your resource is which is how many people do you have in your network? Are your your mentors or you're reaching out? And it's the combination of those things that help us find a journey that's meaningful. And that starts in my mind with understanding ourselves and understanding our skills and then at least for six months at a time, thinking about where we wanna go. How are we gonna get there? What's it gonna look like for six months? I think all of these plans of you know, five years and also asking in the in the book I tell a story about you know what? When kids air in junior high and I was like, What are you gonna dio? How are you gonna you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? What do you to be when you grow up? Like that's not a pressure question, is it No, not at all. Right. You for the rest of your life. I want to eat exactly right. I remember people used to ask Jenna that question all the time. Whoa. Where do you see yourself In five years. And she would say to them with a completely straight phase, I have no idea. I'm a kid, right? And so there. It's just very frustrating for people to try to live up to the expectations of all of these things when you can't possibly do it. So that's why I say Look at these things in very small chunks. Like, what do I want to do for six months or a year or something like that? E mean, if you if you're one of those people who I was thinking about this the other day. I mean, I have a I have two Children. My older child, my son. He had a calling. He's a scientist. He kind of knew he was gonna be a scientist, that he made change what he's doing in the future. But he was on a path to become a scientist, and he didn't stray from that. He didn't say, Oh, I'm gonna now I'm gonna be a writer. He stayed on that path. So some people get a calling and they stick to that path. This conversation or this may not be for them because they they feel committed to a path and they're doing it. And they cannot a living doing it or they live with the very little money that they could do if they're an artist or someone else that, uh, you know where it's not quite as lucrative as science, but I think it's just a individual journey and all we're all I'm looking for is toe cheer people give them, you know, fortify them for the journey, support them, cheer them on, Freaking do it. You guys just freaking do it. I like the underlying warning what the hesitation you have towards people who talk about passion and following that passion because some people say, let everything go and follow that passion and I'll say that's not the way to do it because you do have to eat. And you know what? That passion may just turn out to be a hobby where there's nothing to it besides some enjoyment. At the end of the day, Yeah, and that's fine. But you know, it's got my one of my one of my interview is Oscar by the book Is gender neutral because I thought so much of what young people here today is. Oh, if Susie did this and Dave did this, the colors, the story, right? So if Sally did it that if you're a guy reading that or even a woman oh, a woman did. I mean, it's sort of it's an unconscious bias in my mind. So the book is gender neutral, so Oscar's story in the book is Oh, and you never know It was Oscar, but Oscar, my friend Oscar would say, I want to do something that I know. I'm good at That I think makes a difference to other people where I can earn a living that za pretty good living. I don't need to make a million dollars, but I don't wanna be poverty stricken either. And he got accepted into, ah, several high powered MBA schools, and he said, Wait, I'm going to spend $200,000 to do that, or I could go start my own company. Which one of my I'm gonna go start my own company on, You know that's what he did in his company's right. Now. He's had it for, I think, maybe eight or nine years and he's had He's had to pivot a lot, but he's had a lot of fun doing it, and I admire what he's done. You've mentioned you mentioned your frustration with with how some people perceive these things. What are the frustrations, or why are people...

...frustrated in their work and unwilling to change? Yeah, I don't I don't know if I know why other people don't want to change. I guess I think about it from my own self, which is, you know, I lack confidence. And while I might seem confident and I certainly can be confident, I know there were times when I said, I can't do that now One of the other stories that I just makes me crazy is that particularly with the women that I mentor, they call me up and they say, Look, I'm going to apply for this job, but I don't think I have the right credentials to do it, and so they should. I said, Well, send me the job and you know, I e if I don't know that we'll send your resume and send me the job. And I talked to them a little bit. And the woman is imminently overqualified for the job. Yes, of which she didn't think she was qualified for in the first. And then the same thing happens with some guy. And I'm not trying Thio. I mean, these are obviously stereotypes, So I'm I'm sure there's a lot of exceptions. The guy thinks he's overqualified. E mean, he's no, he's, you know, Inevitably, what the guy says is, I don't think I'm qualified for this job, but I'm gonna apply for it anyway, going to do it? Yeah, because I don't know this for sure, but it seems to me like we trained men and men get get trained to take a risk, and women do not. And I think that's a tragedy. It's wonderful for men that they get trained that trained to do that like ask a girl out. Go ahead. What do you got to lose? Go ahead, ask her. Well, you know, I don't want Oh, but inevitably a successful and I don't mean that in in business I mean successful human being who is a guy is inevitably taking a lot of risks in his life, right? Just just to get get somebody to marry them, for instance, or whatever. Right? Um, so that's one of the things that I see is that this lack of confidence or this lack of, uh, knowledge about oneself that says, Hey, what does the data tell me? That trust but verify. So what does the data tell me about myself? What another one of the people in the book Vicky she she said. She told me. She said, I'm not good with numbers. She wanted to apply for a job which that I'm not good with numbers. And I said, Vicky, you just passed all of the financial exams to become a certified financial planner. What? What would tell you that you're not good with numbers? And so that's herself. Talk Waas. I'm not good with numbers, but she may be. She doesn't love numbers, but she had she would apply for a job, but she said, I've never had a business. I'm like, Honey, wait a minute. You you had a financial planning business and you ran that business for two years to grow your own business. It was like a fantastic experience for sales. She felt that it was a failure. I said it was a magnificent success because look what you learned about sales and running a business and all of that. So I always say, if if if in schools, if we celebrated our failures as much as we celebrate our success is whenever the heck those are, we would be two completely different people. So imagine just like the little kid who is one year old and falls down all the time. And he goes, Yeah, you tried to walk a right. So if in school we said, Oh, you're struggling with math? But you tried? Yeah. So, like, imagine how we would be different. So I think that's the big thing about confidence and risk profile. And that's why I say take really little risks. Just whatever we are. Risk whatever you feel comfortable with. But stretch yourself a little bit. But take that risk. Run a little pilot program, see how that works for you. Like a like a suit of clothes. Try it on, see how it feels. If it feels okay, you know? Then then you can go a little bit farther. If it doesn't, then take it off and go on and get a different shirt and a different, you know, dress or whatever. Just just try something different because it's like a baby. Yeah, just a little crawl, a little step. You stumble, you fall, you get up. You can't don't think of it any more complicated than that, because it's not exactly. And if, But somehow we lose as soon as we go to school, it's like, Oh, that's not good enough. You mentioned success is how would you give people advice for thriving where they are? Oh, I haven't one of the sorry to be so in the book, kind of getting it from the book. So you're giving from the book? So yeah, the story in the book with just eight pitches. Hannah, um she works at a, uh, coop grocery store, and she said she thought about changing jobs, and then she said to herself, I really love this place, and I love the people that come here, and I don't want to go somewhere else. I want to see...

...what I can make of this job while I'm here, and she said that mental shift in her head made all the difference in the world, and she had made. Shortly after that, she made a proposal to her, to the people at the store and for a whole new position, a job that had never been before. And she pitched that job and they said, She said, What I always say is Let's try it, let's try it for, you know, a month or two or whatever Um, when I worked for work part time when I when my kids were small, I want to spend more time with them than then they spent with a stranger on People said, You can't You can't be a manager and work part time. I just watch me, you know? So she said, I've created this job for myself and so I think I think that that first of all, a fundamental shift and how she looked at things and then the other part was, What can I do here? And if you look around and it really isn't anything, you think no place for you to go? That's sort of how I was in the teachers lounge, like, what am I gonna be when I grow up. Aan dat wasn't a conscious thing on my part. I didn't have any idea where I wanted to go. I just knew I just felt in my heart. I did not know. I felt in my heart that it was not gonna work for me. So try try to see what happens when you're there. But this generation of younger people that they switch jobs all the time. And I said there's nothing wrong with switching jobs. But if you're switching jobs without understanding what you why you went to that job and why you're going to a new job and what you hope to learn there. If you're not taking a few minutes to say Why am I leaving here? You can just end up job hopping in ways that are not really all that productive. You will learn something every place, but it can take a lot of energy. Would you say a lot of people don't have that proper mindset at first? Could be because they're looking at other friends family with other jobs and they're thinking that they have it so good. So then it makes this present job so so much worse. Yeah, I can't speak for men. I can only speak for myself. But I see that with people that I call it, comparing my insides or somebody else's outside. So I feel inadequate because I think they've got something. But the truth is, I don't have any idea whether they liked that job or not. And they they have. Maybe they've been trained to say, Oh, no, I love this job. It's fantastic. I make great money or or whatever, or they may have just different values than you. So how can you compare with my values are better than someone else's? I can't. I mean, you could say, Yeah, I think I think my values are better than somebody else. But why would I do that? I mean, what's what's the what's in it for me to compare myself to somebody else? I I think it's kind of a waste of energy. Um, I think people could be an inspiration, but comparing without all the facts and you're never gonna have all the facts on how somebody else really feels it's like looking at somebody else's marriage and going well, they're really happy. E mean, look at them by looking in the photo? Yeah, or or even, you know, watching them over dinner. I mean, you don't have any. Any idea? Really? What happens? You know, in that marriage. So all that comparing is just, I think, a big waste of energy. But, you know, I mean, it's kind of a human thing to Dio so So focusing on new Debbie. What is a skill that you've had to develop, especially as an author? 00 gosh. So this is my first book, and I've written other things that have been published, but I've never written a book before, so I didn't get serious about writing this book until I hired an author. I'm sorry. Hired an editor? Yes. And I didn't really understand what an editor would dio and I just trusted. Maybe this was a bad idea. Seems like things were going okay, so I don't know, but I said, Well, I'm going to start looking around for somebody who's an editor. I live in Oregon, so live in the lived in the Pacific Northwest, and I didn't have to live near me. I just wanted to look for somebody who was independent and who I could support and who I thought would support me. And I stumbled on this editor. She was from Seattle. Now she lives in Portland. Excuse me. And she I mean, I'm just amazed at how talented unedited has to be. And you're kind of baby sitter. You're kind of, You know, you're you're an author yourself. You're a writer. Your, uh I don't even know how to describe it. So appreciating the work of an editor of a copywriter, A line A line editor. I have something that helps me with the publishing part of it. There's so much to learn. Life is very exciting for me. What? I'm learning. I'm good. That those are my three qualifications for how I spend my time. Am I learning? Um, I having fun. And, um, I appreciate it, and so am I learning that part's pretty easy, because either I'm learning or...

I'm not. That's not That's not tricky for me. Um, I appreciated is that doesn't have to be. It could be money. It could be how I'm rewarded, how I'm compensated. But it also is Do I get the feeling that the person that I am working for, whether it's a client or a boss or whatever customer do. I don't know. I think that they respect me and that they are looking at me with, you know, kind of what I call yes, eyes, right. Like, Yes, I hear I see you. I hear you. And, um, I having fun? That's pretty easy to tell, too. So if I have two out of three of those, I'm I'm golden. I'm good. I don't need all three of them. If I could get all three of them, I would a Zaha independent author. The m I appreciate it. I certainly appreciate myself, but I'm never gonna You know, nobody's ever gonna make a million dollars And not that I want a million dollars, but you never gonna get rich. Let's put it that way. Selling your own pop up book s Oh, I'm not very smart, but as a skill. Are you learning to What? What is What is it? Oh, sorry. I didn't answer your question, I guess. Eh? So I was in my head. No answer is very good. I think the idea is so so learning how to take a story which I'm a storyteller on and make that into something that could be useful to other people. I would say that's probably probably one of the most important. Would you say your editor helped you along? That process is well, you know, 900% way. Yes. Ah, 100%? Yes. And she told me in the beginning, she said writing a book will transform your life. And I thought to myself, I don't think so. I think of an editor like a very scared like. Okay, here's my writing. Please don't hurt me when you you know, they have a big ball of red inks. A job? No, no, but neither Scrooge, No stabbing it. Um, no. Well, I that wouldn't have worked well with me, so I hired I actually hired a woman. I could have hired a band. I get along well with men. I like their energy and all that. So it wasn't It didn't have anything to do with that. It had to do with first of all on her website how she talked about why she liked being an editor and the kinds of people that she brings along. And I think I just got lucky because I didn't really look around. After I found her, I looked around a little bit, but I stopped looking around because I thought once I talked to her and met her, I was like, Yeah, this is good. This is gonna work out. And part of it was just taking a leap of faith and just saying I haven't got anything to lose. At this point, I'll lose some money or whatever, but that's not I'm gonna learn, no matter what. And since learning is one of my main goals, that's all I care about is, um I'm gonna learn. And she seemed nice. So, you know, we're gonna get into a big fight about it, Debbie. As learning goes, it takes time and energy. What you're doing takes time and energy. How do you stay productive? How do you keep going? You were very busy. Probably up a few years ago now, but now your focus. So you could still be Justus busy. How are you staying? Productive. Yeah, that's that's an excellent question. You know, um, I'm a baby boomer, so working a lot working hard is like in my DNA. It's kind of annoying, actually. Uh, and so I have a routine of getting up. And I don't take a shower when I get up. A lot of people do. I don't. I eat breakfast. I take a walk, a short walk, and then I come back and work whether it's writing or whatever, you know, just doing whatever the work is. So I need a schedule. If I didn't do that, if I waited until the afternoon when my I wouldn't be productive. So it's just sticking to the schedule is all I could say. And then I tricked myself into doing things I don't want to dio. I've been doing this since high school. So the things I don't want to dio I put them on a list and then I say, Well, if you if I do this, then I could do that thing, which is a lot more fun and chocolate or something. Yeah, well, or, you know, whatever it whatever it is, Yeah, it could be, you know, could be a probably wouldn't be a food, you know, It might be, you know, watch something on TV. Yeah, music or little treat. You know, take a take a few minutes to just close my eyes or something like that. But so you can't do this other thing until you do this. This thing you you hate or just exactly exactly, I make myself do it. That's the only way I got through school, was driving myself to do the thing. I in fact, people say, Oh, I put off the thing I don't want to do to the last minute. I mean, I'm a Capricorn, so I'm quite disciplined. So I would do the thing. Whatever. The...

...thing is that I want to do the least that's what I do first. Considering, you know, has to be important. But that's what I do first, because otherwise I procrastination is not. And I would say I don't progressed it at all, because I certainly do. But I don't wanna be procrastinating that just that just causes a reverberation of problems that I'm not interested in. You mentioned scheduling. Is there a tool that you use that it helps you stay efficient in your work? Something specific? No, because it's just me. And, you know, when I had my you know, I was a consultant. Um, I actually manage my inbox. My inbox is kind of my to do list, and I know a lot of people would find that annoying. It's just the way I do it. And I I put everything on my calendar that I got to do. So it's just I only I managed myself by Google basically knowing your first job and dry cleaning. Technically, me being in an E right, but at switching jobs along the way, and people are in similar paths. You know, younger people getting their first job, other people switching their job if they're finding they're frustrated, or for whatever reason, do you have a tip for people just getting into their first line of work or changing a career? Mm, that's a good question. Um, I would say the thing I did for myself was I said, Look, unless it was like a, you know, a waitressing job or something, something that really it wasn't it wasn't on a career path. Most likely, I would say, E said, You could have six months to do or three months. I don't have to prove anything for three months or two months or whatever it ISS. I think sometimes, especially when I was younger, I felt like I wanted to go in there and make my mark. I wanted toe tell people what I knew and how to do it and all of that, and I found that that didn't work as well for me as I wanted. So take time to assess who's got the power. I say, If you don't if you if the organization doesn't have an organization chart, uh, make up your own, see who's the power? Who has the power? Because the title doesn't always reflect who the who has the power in the organization. And I'm not saying power like, you know, who's the CEO necessarily. Ah, lot of times there's technical people. There's other people that really influenced the culture in a place that you may never even have realized unless you looked around Attack that the heart of the organized. Yes, where who has the heart and where, Where are those people? And watch them and and watch how people are rewarded. And because in a in autocratic place you'll be able to see very quickly that people are being rewarded for doing what they're what people want them to dio. And if that's not what you want to dio then watch. Watch what people dio pay attention to find. Find people that you could relate to their and you don't have toe cozy up to him. But it's can be easier to observe behavior than you think. Um, I had something else, but I forgot what it was. So it's okay. The idea of you mentioned earlier integrity is there Ah, character trait that you feel is one whether in the workplace or you as being an author is is very important to have is is one of your top character traits for people. Well, I don't know if integrity and authenticity I don't know if authenticity is a trait, but what I have observed in Millennials and Gen. Z's is that they crave authenticity and they can spot a phony a million miles away. I mean, I see people trying to come in and talk to these people, talk to these young people like I'm so special. I'm so important and you know they don't they don't say anything. They don't go. You're you're a phony. They just sit there and take it in, and then they come to their conclusion. They'll test out what they saw, but you know, that's why I put authentic in the book, because I think it's the most important thing is to be true to yourself and find a way for you and it, particularly in difficult times when we have ah, lot of discrimination. Ah, lot of systemic discrimination and other things that are very discouraging for a lot of people. And not a lot of people don't want to tolerate that. We live in a world. This is the way the world is. We can't change everything overnight, but we can take our time and our energy and our money and our talent and support Those people who we know are doing it...

...in a way that reflect your values. And so that's why I think integrity or authenticity or whatever the word is. One of the words I use is congruence like I want I wanna be the kind of person who, if you see me on the street or you see me on a podcast or you see me wherever you see me, I'm the same person. What was that word again? I'm learning. It's congruent c o n g r u e n c e congruence So that means I'm Yeah, I am the same person no matter where I doesn't ruined congruent Yes, yes. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Pronouncing it wrong. No, no, no, no. You're pronouncing right, but it's derived from to be congruent. Yes. So that means yeah, compatible. Right? Right. Because when I grew up, you had a had a persona you wore at work, and then you had a persona. You had it home and you had a persona that you had with your friends. And in some ways, that's very normal. That's extremely normal, right? E don't act the same way in front of my grandparent's as I do in front of my goofy buddies, right? But that's a that's different than I am. One person, one place, and I'm somebody totally else someplace else. And if you think about discrimination, whether it be L g b T Q um, uh, discrimination against gender, race, creed, whatever it is to have to hide who you are in order to be effective is just soul crushing. It's just soul crushing. I'm just watching this, uh, this program about jazz and it's in America. And it said, Oh, I know it was the native American effect on on rock and roll. That's what it was. And they were talking about how Native Americans who contributed to rock in the sixties and seventies preferred to pass as black because there was a lot of intermarriage between blacks and Native Americans. They preferred to pass this black, the Native Americans, because blacks were treated so much better than Native Americans. And I thought it was It was against the law. Don't have a drum toe, own a drum, and I thought, Yeah, rather than based on your talent or ability or what you're bringing to the table, you have to identify something else so that you will be perceived at all. Exactly, Exactly. And I just don't think this thes this generation is going to tolerate that at all on. And you know, these managers are just not ready for that. They're just not ready for what these young people are going to dish out. And I have started an effort Thio provide the you work it questions for managers because my son said G, that the managers could really use that to help them get to know their employees. They're younger employees and have a conversation. But I wrote the book for young people because I didn't want. I didn't think I could change the minds or support effectively older people. Oh, there's hope for them yet, isn't there? Well, I could do it and I'm really old, so Well, no, I'm not saying yet to that, but there is hope for us all. There is hope for us all 100% and that needs thio, the education and and generally speaking, where do you place education in a person's life, whether it's formal or informal? Yeah, personally, I think college is not for everyone. And I think this push for everyone to go to college is wrong. That said, I think getting an education and going to college is a wonderful experience. It's a great thing, but is it worth $250,000 to go to college and then come out and not be able to find a job and then be in debt for the rest of your life or something? I mean, just to me, it doesn't make any sense, and I blame. I don't blame is the right word. I think at higher Ed has has not kept up with what good things can happen in the classroom. They have, You know, given 10 year two professors, it's a very, uh oh, I'm gonna talk. You're gonna listen kind of an environment. And I think the pandemic has has changed things so quickly in ways that I think I would have taken us another 20 years and academics to do it. So I think it's very important if if going to college is a good thing for you, then please, please, I'm begging you. Study something that you like because studying something you don't like having your book. Do you have a plan to get it into the hands of high school students? For instance, if you your book there and people have a guide to help them figure out some of these things rather than Oh, I'm done high school, I better go to university without any reasoning behind it. Yeah, Yeah, I don't have a plan to get it...

...into high schools because it was really written for young professionals. That's who I had in mind when I wrote it may be my next book for teenagers. I'll take some of this and put it in with that other stuff. I gotta have that in the back of my mind. But the I do have one college here, Oregon State University, where they're looking at it and, you know, we'll see. I mean, it talks about colleges in kind of a negative way. So I don't know, Rick clued me from but the career guy or whatever he is, Uh, yeah, the career. The young man who runs the career center over there. Um, he sent me an article doing what you just said. I reached out to him and he said, Oh, here, let me give you something free. So he sent me this article that he wrote about how he thinks career centers have got to change radically in order to accommodate what s Oh, he's somebody that gets it so well. See, I haven't I haven't, uh, pursued him because I don't want I don't want to start something else and get involved in the college part when I want to do the audio book. But I I think about him a lot and see, you know, is there a way to start talking to people? Because even as even as freshmen or even sophomores. The whole idea of being able to think differently about what you're doing and how you're doing it is, I think, is priceless and not anything against parents, because they're just doing the best they could do. But how can we? How can we change the conversation about what people do in school? And and some people feel overwhelmed to right? There's a lot of information. And then what do I do? What Doe I pick from how Doe I know and all of these sorts of things do. And then they people have their own struggles and own uncertainties, and they own their own problems at home. So add that into the pot, and it's understandable why people like us stumble along the way and not quite sure. But then, in hindsight, we say, Well, maybe you should try this way because this a little bit easier for you, right? Right. And that's where it goes back to knowing yourself, the more you know yourself at this point, whatever point in time you're at because you know, now you have a family, you have Children. I mean, that's a You need different things now than you did when you were 18 or 20 or 21? Probably right. I mean, I looked at a career in a completely different way before I had before I was married before I had Children. So it can change. And that's a That's a beautiful thing. That's a good thing. But the more I know myself, the more I'm gonna be able to ride that wave of changes vs O. Now I got to go do this or I gotta work some job that I hate. I just that just breaks my heart to think of the potential, the human talent just going toe waste at some job that somebody hates I just to me. It's just soul crushing Debbie as you ride the wave. What is your overall goal? Maybe your overarching goal, maybe specifically for your book or your career? Um, I would say, as I said, it's a kind of ridiculous thing to think I'm gonna change the conversation about work, meaningful work for young people. But I said, Well, that's really what I want to dio. I mean, that's what I'm dedicating myself to for the next whatever period of time. And as's faras, my career My guess is that I will write another book. That would be my guess right now. Uh, but I don't I don't know that for sure. One of my favorite things to do is to mentor. I work over at the college and then over at the what's called the Accelerator, which is the business startup accelerator. So I love working with people who are starting their businesses and listening to them and encouraging them. And so I would see doing that, continuing to do that and looking for ways to do that. Mawr probably post pandemic because I'm a little bit limited now. I mean, we could do things over Zoom, but there's nothing like sitting face to face with somebody and having them say, Oh, you know, I love my business. I'm so excited, right? And then, like Oh, yeah, I don't know. It's just to me. It's just different as you look towards the future. Is there something that people may not understand about you? That if they understood they would have a better appreciation of the work that you're accomplishing? Wow, that's a very interesting question. I would say that I don't I don't know this But I'm a person who believes that I'm here. I'm here for a reason. I'm here to do something. I consider myself a spiritual being, having a human experience. It's a good point because sorry, some people don't believe they have a purpose. Yeah, and it's miserable. Yeah. I mean, it's not that isn't my experience, so I don't know. I don't know if I would like that or not. I I can't relate to it at all. But, uh,...

...my day, my week my life is driven by being of service and finding a way to be happy. But share that with other people in a way that is congruent to me like, I don't wanna walk around Polyana like everything is great. Uh, but I don't want to contribute to the the sucking sound of Oh, everything's terrible either. So I'm not here to rescue anybody, but I am here to contribute, I hope to the conversation, and that's kind of a spiritual responsibility and joy that that that is me. I don't I don't know if that's answers your question, but well, it's obvious in the book that you have chosen because you're planting a seed that people read this. It helps them in their lives, right? You're you're giving to people so that they can succeed in whatever they choose to do and you're not telling them Do this. You're saying here, here's a guide for you that may help you find meaningful work and and that shows that you're selfless. E. I mean, there's obviously well, there's obvious other benefits to it. But you didn't pick like, here's my story and listen to me how great I am. But here, here, based on my experience, here's some things that might help you along the way and shows right and knowing that I had a lot of privilege to I mean, I was born identifying as heterosexual white female. I mean, I had a lot of privilege that went along with my journey, So I consider myself fortunate. And what is that saying? Thio, who much is given much is expected, and eso I I live by that. I mean, I've been given a tremendous amount of tremendous number of gifts, including good health and ah ah, brain that works at least part of the time and, uh, curious and capable of learning. So it's my responsibility to find a way Thio give back to the world. Debbie, I only have a couple questions left for you but thinking of privilege. But the opposite of that of adversity, Is there any adversity that you have? Not quite the opposite of that, but on a different vein. Adversity. Something that you have faced where you it may have adversely, positively or negatively affected your work but thinking mawr of the listener and how you can encourage them in the adversity they face. E When I was getting divorced, I had a long not not not not fun divorce. But when I was getting divorced, I worked for, uh, someone. He was actually I I liked him very much for the great boss and my, uh, without going into any details. My boss got summons to come to the our divorce trial, and they served him in his house. I hope this goes well because I have to go to work the next day and I'm laughing because there wasn't anything and they were whatever, it doesn't matter. But hey was there to just talk about whether I you know, whether I worked well or some some some some nonsense anyway. So I see him the next day and I didn't know anything about it. So I see him at work and he goes, Um, can you come in my office? I'm like, Fine. So I mean, I am so mortified that this has happened and he's and he's a He's a Canadian. So need I say more? No, You said enough. Yeah, he's a lovely guy. Uh, I know his wife. He was responsible for a very large budget. And his joke always waas his wife think her name was Mary Lou. Mary Lou never lets me near a checkbook because because in my mind, I round every number to the nearest million. So, you know, he was a funny guy. He was a nice guy and he called me and he said, Look, I've been given and you know, I got served at home and my wife said, Wait, you're being subpoenaed in a divorce action. And I'm like, Oh, John, I don't even I don't even know what to say. Hey, it's like I was just like, Oh, mortified doesn't even begin. Yeah, it turned to everything, turned out fine, and he was a lovely person. But, you know, at that moment and when I was going through that trial, uh, I remember Look, I'm not a big religious person, and I don't mean to imply that, but as I was sitting in the courtroom underneath where the judge said, it says and it said it big letters in God we trust. And I thought, Whatever Somebody's interpretation of God is in that context, and there's a lot of interpretations of that, Uh, I just said, Look, there are good things waiting for me. That's what I said to myself. And this, too, shall pass whatever this is, this too shall pass. So that's what I would say. There are a lot of hard things in life and everything that happened to me,...

...particularly what I made mistakes or what I thought were mistakes at the time. They taught me the most. You know what's what Billy Joel says? Right? Mistakes are the only things you can truly call your own. So it was such a If you're in one of those moments or you're having those times when things seem the darkest and that it can't possibly be okay, it will be okay somehow I can only tell you it will be okay somehow. I don't know how, but it will be. That's what I believe. This too will pass. Hmm. Debbie, how can people get in contact with you or reach out and get your book? Uh, yeah, The the the website is authentic. Meaningful work dot com and the book is called Whoa! Oh, just build water all over everything, including this book. The book is called An Authentic Humans Guide to Finding meaningful work. And on the back is me and my dog. So, yeah, I appreciate it. And, uh, I my twitter handle is de mori at De Mori. So you can follow me there. And that is where I announced my zoom sessions. If somebody wants to join, that's very informal. We just have a conversation about like I just did one entrepreneurship. I'll do another one. I mentorship. I'll do one. I'm boss shopping. It's not me talking about anything. It's the people bringing their experiences from the group. So every group is different, and it's just so much fun. It's so much fun. I wish I could spend all my days doing that. Uh, just having these conversations with young people. It's it's really it's such a joy. It's such a pleasure. One final question for you to be. And that is why do you work? Well again, being a baby boomer, ITT's what you dio that's number one. And I work because, Aziz, you think as you think about that, Debbie, it reminds me my mom was a baby boomer. And I told you before we started that just in February, she passed away of cancer, but she was on her deathbed pulling herself up. This is why I started the podcast pulling literally. I was like, Mom, get down, pulling herself up. Say, I got to go toe okay. Riddled with cancer, but like, stubborn enough to say I got to go toe. This is a woman Had two or three jobs. Always. Yeah, the time, But she Irish fighting chance German. And what's the, um, maybe Ira? It was mechanic Mick, right? Is that Oh, yeah. It could be Scottish. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, those baby boomers. Yeah, you gotta go. You have, like, two days left. E could take a break. Yeah, now is an okay time to do it. So I think if I put the compulsion aside, or the DNA or the training or whatever it is, I would say it's one of the most fun places I've ever found to meet people, toe learn and to have fun. I mean, that's my criteria for doing stuff, whether it's volunteer work or paid work or whatever. If I can learn and have fun and, you know, meet people, I'm good, I'm good and I'm kind of an introvert. So it's not like I'm out there going, Hey, I can't wait to meet you But I guess that's why I work because I don't know how else to have fun. No, it's not true. That's not true. I don't know. I don't know how else to learn. Now. That's not true. I don't know. Maybe it's the combination of those three things that really make it. Make it so rewarding. So much fun. Debbie Morey, the author of Unauthentic Humans Guide to Meaningful Work and someone who has planted a seed to help others find meaningful work in their lives. I appreciate your time and thank you for the work that you dio Gosh, Brian, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure thank you for listening to this episode of why we work with Brian V. Be sure to subscribe, follow and share with others so they to be encouraged in their work. E hope that you have yourself a productive, joyful day in your work.

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