WhyWeWork BrianVee
WhyWeWork BrianVee

Episode 79 · 1 year ago

#79 Caroline Ceniza-Levine - Dream Career Club - BrianVee WhyWeWork

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Caroline Ceniza-Levine is an author, Forbes Careers senior contributor, career coach and founder and owner of the Dream Career Club. Caroline helps people find work that suits their interests and skills.

Contact Info

Caroline’s Profile
linkedin.com/in/carolinecenizalevine

Websites
cenizalevine.com/ (Career coaching)

costaricafire.com/ (FI, real estate, travel)

Twitter
twitter.com/CCenizaLevine

About

"I help people make a great living doing work they love.

I work with individuals and organizations as a career coach, including professionals from Amazon, Conde Nast, Goldman Sachs, Google, JPMorgan Chase, McKinsey, Tesla and other start-ups thru global companies. My specialty is career change -- I am the author of “Jump Ship: 10 Steps To Starting A New Career“.

I recruit senior leaders to individual contributors in a range of industries. Previous searches include:
-HR Director, edtech;
-Head of Total Rewards, food tech;
-CFO, non-profit historic site;
-President, non-profit arts;
-Head of Regional Sales, investment firm;
-Senior Director, Information Systems, biotech;
-experienced risk management consultant, strategy consulting.

I appear in the media on all things career -- as a guest expert on CNN, CNBC, CBS, FOX Business and other outlets; as a Senior Contributor to Forbes and former career columnist in Money, CNBC and Portfolio.

Do you love what you do? Get free career resources on CenizaLevine.com, including the downloadable checklist, 25 Career Mistakes Even Smart Professionals Make." (LinkedIn, 2020)

...welcome to why we work with your host Brian V. As he speaks to people like you from all over the world as we together dive deeper into our motivations, struggles, joys, seemingly missteps, hopes, warnings and advice, which will be an encouragement to us all to get up, get going on and keep on working. Working is tough, but working is good. Now here's your host to why we work. Brian V. I'm Brian B. And this is why we work today at the great pleasure of speaking with Caroline Ceniza Levine. Caroline is an author. Forbes career contributor. Aziz Well, as a career coach, I want to find out from Caroline where we should put our hope, and I mean in the sense of in careers should I hope be in the markets that say that the job market is this or that, or unemployment is high or low, Or should we have more responsibility and take it upon ourself? And while I believe she's going to go with the former, I want to find out how and work that out with her. So join me in my conversation with Caroline Ceniza Levine. I'm Ryan V and this is why we work today. Have the great pleasure of speaking with Caroline Sydney's Levin. Good evening, young lady. Yes. Thanks for having me on the show. Well, I really appreciate. I find that I'm in over my head with most of my guests. But looking at your somewhat resume things that you've been doing, noticing the footprint that you have on social media, having a lot of experience with interviews and just your career, I usually feel I'm really feeling over my head here, so if you would do me the pleasure of just a little snapshot of who you are and then I'd like to bring you back. But I certainly feel like I'm drowning on my end. No, I don't know why you feel that way. My career very simply, is all about careers. You know, My first job, even in college, was working at the career office of my college. And so even from that, even though I didn't think that eventually I would have my own firm that dealt with career coaching where I'm dealing with thousands of career paths. Um, even at the very beginning, I was issuing time sheets. I was, you know, organizing files for people seek searching for jobs all those sorts of little steps in the way of getting people hired. And then from there I moved into business consulting. So it wasn't so much hiring, but it was still working in business, working in an advisory capacity. So I use that today, and certainly knowing a lot about different industries helps me in my work. I then went into retained Executive Search, which of course, is directly hiring people. I then went in house, um, in recruiting for a global media company before starting my own firm in 2000 and eight and, you know, fun Fact is that I actually didn't major in anything HR related. I was a double major in economics and music, so I trained as a classical pianist, and I've been doing creative stuff all along the way. I've done acting an improv and stand up comedy. So, um so I have a unique career path to, so I encourage my crop clients to do the same. It's it's really good. I'd like to get into some of these. Maybe later we might repeat some of them to get a timeline of your life and you mentioned your first job in college working in the career services section. What was your first job ever? Because I'm I'm guessing with someone with with what you do. That wasn't your very first job. It wasn't right out of college. Okay, here's the first you were doing something. That was you. Yeah. It was my first office job, for sure. But when I was younger, I was in grade school. So when I was in grade school, So e want to say, Oh, yeah, for sure. By the time I was, you know, nine or 10, I was baby sitting, you know, a small child in my building, right? So I was baby sitting. But I was also, I think even before that I was actually selling small Candies at to my elementary school classmates. I would buy candy in bulk that would come in little packages for the little junior mints or little packs of gum. And I would I would sell them because even at just pennies for each little pack, because you buy them 50 at a time. When I was making, I was making you know, dollars in profit, which for a young kid is a lot. That's...

...like my dear wife. I believe she did that with her sisters. She would go out and buy and then sell them to her sisters or something on it. Just shows that you know, the drive, the entrepreneurial, the idea that there's something in it. So after selling candy, that's all. I think you're the youngest so far, 88 was 89 maybe. How old were you in that? Yeah, nine elementary school. So eight or nine? That's when I was selling candy. I mean, it was Yeah, it was 789? Yes. And then baby sitting, you know, a little bit of tutoring. So I did have, um, other kinds of jobs. I didn't work in an office, though, until, well, that's awesome. I'm not even like it's interesting that you worked in office and do those things, but I like Thio map out the career path of people to show how non linear it is and how you know someone's the beginnings of someone's idea of work. How that started, what the motivation was. Do you know why that kind of kindle at such a new early age like you're talking 789 10 like, That's impressive. Yeah, you know, I don't It's funny because I don't think of myself necessarily is an entrepreneur. Although I will say that my mom was side hustling before side hustling was a thing. I mean, she routinely had her day job and then she would sell Avon Products was an Avon lady, and then she would have, ah, part time job on the weekends sometimes. And so I think I always thought creatively about what a career might look like that I didn't necessarily see. Okay, you have to do this one thing, and that's all that there is. And I was also good in math, frankly, so I could just run the numbers on a on a bag of bulk junior mint and see that there was potential there. What about middle school and into high school? Did you have some other job? Try some other things, You know, that was mainly I mean, it was mainly about school tell you that my upbringing was very much the traditional, um, do well in school so that you can get into a good college, that you could get a good job, and so you could work at this good job as much as I say that my mom was the first side hustler. I don't think she ever referred to herself that way or thought of herself as entrepreneurial. And I certainly didn't think of myself as entrepreneurial, even when I started my own company in 2000 and eight. So we're talking. 13 years ago, I waas thinking of it as a reluctant entrepreneurship. I thought of it as there were things that I wanted to do. I didn't see exactly the job that matched up, so I made myself a job. I didn't think of it as I went into business again. I was still thinking in terms of traditional career, Caroline thinking, knowing that you weren't really working in middle school high school, but you were in the sense of a job. But you're working hard in school. Can you give us an idea of what the push was? You mentioned to get a job, but I know my dear wife is Korean. There's different cultures that look at education differently. So while on the surface it seems like a no brainer, of course, middle school, high school, you should be focusing on school and doing well and looking for your career. But not all people do it. Not all people are motivated to actually put that pen or pencil to the paper. So where was that coming from? And what was the core idea and why? Why was education? Ah, prominent. I mean, you went into economics and music, which means you probably started some instrument of some sort when you were a younger child as well. So where did that come from? And why? Why do you think that is important? Yeah, I think you touched on it when you say that some of this is cultural right in societal norms. So my mom was also a pianist. I I feel like I could tell this joke because I myself am Asian. I'm Asian, So I had to pick up in instrument. Um, it was just expected that you that you you pick up in instrument. Even my sister, who ultimately didn't continue with piano, learned how to play the piano. We all learned an instrument and eso it was initially leading by example. And like I said, my mom was working really hard. And so that was just something that seemed normal. So even though it wasn't about starting a business, necessarily, it was it was all about, you know, she did well when she was in school, and here she is, working really hard still. And so that was That was the role model, right? That I was I was following, and I also felt like it was a way of, um getting I think it's a lot of It's the immigrant mentality. My my mom immigrated thio the US from the Philippines. I was born here, but of course I, you know, saw again. Has she cobbled together? Ah, career here, Um, from scratch, basically. And so my...

...generation. So my sister and I were the first of her in her siblings. You know, second Generation Thio graduate from college here. And so there was just this notion of you have this great opportunity. Higher education in the U. S. Is very, um, it's prestigious. It's and rightly so. I mean, I felt like I had a great education. You might as well use it, you know, take advantage of it. And don't, um, don't let those opportunities go to waste, so I always just felt like, Hey, you know, here we are. And, um, I'm seeing everyone around to me working hard. And so it just it just made sense. Caroline, can you comment also? You're also saying to like taking advantage of a non opportunity, a good opportunity. But not everyone's immigrating over and that, you know, that's like the nice storybook. You know, my family came over and we saw this opportunity. It's great, it's wonderful. But not all people have that story. And so, like, I'm thinking even of my son and my daughter and, you know, getting them to sit down and do their work, especially nowadays with Cove it where some of its a lot of its home. So it more of like homeschooling. And it's like I sometimes I have it in my mind the idea of why school school is important. But I also know it's good to get the advice of other people in their perspective, so we can impart that to other people, to Children and other people, maybe even lifelong learners who are a little older, getting into education as well. So how would you present that message to someone that doesn't have some wonderful story or some adversity in their life. But it's just the idea of schools very important for you, even though it doesn't seem like the fruits of your labor are coming to fruition at this moment. And it's, you know, it's a grind. How How would you present that message Thio younger audience or someone just, you know, realizing I need to upgrade my skills? Yeah, you know, I have. I have kids myself. So I understand your, uh, the analogy that you give and I had read somewhere that third generation wealth is the hardest that the first generation makes it. The second generation kind of lives off the fruits of that. But then, by the time you get to the third generation, it's it's it's harder and harder, and part of it is because they lose that history, right, they lose. How have difficult? It was perhaps thio in this case of mass, that wealth or in what we were talking about, that education, that opportunity. So even just that story. So with my own kids, for example, it's less about me telling them you should take advantage of education specifically as an opportunity. But I do try to point out to them, um, different options. And I have told them that statistic about third generation wealth and just to open their eyes and say, Isn't that interesting that it is difficult right to do that and just and just letting them also figure it out right? Because I think part of part of taking advantage of opportunities is that there is a self starting mentality that you have to find something in yourself. In my case, I was modeling after my mom and seeing how hard she worked, um, for my kids, they're gonna have to find whatever that other inspiration is. And it might be modeling after what they do with their parents. Or it might be that they pursue something. They have an interest, or they develop a passion and something, and that is what pulls them along. S so I think you know, when I talked to someone who maybe it's not education or maybe it's not running their own business or maybe it's not getting to the sea level. Um, I'm not dismayed by that. I'm always like, Well, then what is it for you that lights you up? Because I do believe that I think everybody wants to be on a path to something. I think we innately, you know, want to be involved, Want to leave a legacy. We might not say that or call it that, but I think people will enjoy being interested. And so there are many different ways to have a career, and I should know. I've recruited for over 20 years. I've coached hundreds of people, Um and so I I do see that there are people who are are passionate and who are accomplished, who are entrepreneurs who are employees who are executives who are, you know, creatives. And so there's many ways to skin this cat. Was I saying Well, thinking of I mean, not only a cap, but a bird's eye view of your career in the sense that you had a lot of different opportunities. Could you give us that view in and bring us up till today of what you're doing? And e. I mean, some of the difficulties, some of the...

...challenges of not maybe being where you want to be, But you can see some of these experiences were good to progress. You forward a swell as you know what those steps may have looked like in transitioning into what you do now. Sure. And look, I'm telling my story with 2020 hindsight, right? So I didn't live. The story with the lessons already weren't when I was making the choices that I made, it was really based on the knowledge that I had at the time and my priorities at the time. So in the beginning, when I majored in music and economics, So I made those choices based one on my interests, but to also on where I thought that I was going to have a career. At the time, I was really looking at college as a stepping stone into my riel adult life. I think like many young people, okay, life begins after college. And so economics was something that I found incredibly interesting, but also incredibly practical. And I felt like I could do something with that. And music was the reason why I double majored as opposed toe. Maybe just taking classes or minor ring was because I wanted to be in the conservatory program. I wanted toe actually take private lessons and you could not do that unless you were a major, so I had to suck it up and add Ah, Bunch, of course, is that I might not necessarily have taken so again. Caroline. Sorry to interrupt, but I mean, that shows your foresight, Just thio look ahead into something. And I would for myself who do did not look in a head in my even in school and the idea of, Well, how would these courses affect the future? Even something small like I remember taking a guitar lesson or on our lesson like, how would that help me in the future? But you were really looking at, you know, you wanted to continue your music on the side. However, that would look professionally, But you were taking these courses and you thought of that before. And I think a lot of students are not taking their their course Selection is seriously, they might take the major, but you're doubling down because you have another plan. And I think it's really good on you toe to be wise enough at that young of age. And I guess anyone could be wise at any age. But the idea of what you did is really it should be commended because I know I didn't do it. I don't know how many people. There's a lot of people doing it, but I think it's really good what you did. Well, I want to stress to that. There could also be lots of other selections, right? So I one could also have have said, Oh, well, I I'm taking Let's say economics in this case and it's it's a pretty analytical subject. Let me double it with something like, uh, English, you know, that exercises diff different muscles. Let me double it with politics if I'm interested, perhaps in looking at more of the macro and more of society. So I think when I like I said, You know, I I tell the story because because I know how the how the story played out. But as I'm going through it, and this is something that I encourage with everybody is that you don't have to have it all figured out. I chose Thio major in music so that I could take the lessons because I wanted the lessons and I didn't necessarily have. Certainly there was no guarantee that anything would come of it. I just felt like it was something I wanted to continue doing. And as it turned out, my piano teacher, uh, was very interested in the stock market. And so we would spend a lot of my lesson time talking about the things that I was learning in economics. And we started talking about business, and so you don't really know where your inspirations were going to come from, where your opportunities they're going to come from. But you can't really lose if you pursue things that are interesting to you, because then you're going tohave the natural motivation to wanna continue. If I didn't want to go to the lessons if I was there kicking and screaming, who knows? If I would have developed as good a report with my teacher that he and I started talking about subjects that were well outside the bounds of our work together, going back just a little bit just to wonder, did you kick and scream doing your maths at first or your music at first, when you first started getting into it or you all I mean, that's seven and eight, Yeah. No. And I was lucky. You know, I was lucky that way. Obviously that I took to it and that I enjoyed it. Um, I can tell you that I would have. We're not a sporty family there, no athletes in the family. And so I think you could tell this story if you had an athletic family there. There are some families. I know where everybody plays...

Little League or everybody learns how to play tennis or whatever it is. And so you have that similar dynamic. I wish that I had learned certain sports when I was younger and that I just was more coordinated and that way when it was early on. And so I I feel like, you know, if people are listening and they're like, Oh, I didn't have the kind of upbringing where I had music It's not about music. And if you didn't have an upbringing where you had sports, it's also not about the sport, right? It's about can where are you in the moment? And what can you do with now? Because that's really all that we have. So even when I I talk about planning to take lessons and planning for the major, that again that was dictated by day what was happening then, which was I was required to take them to declare the major in order to continue the lessons. And so that's That's what I did on Guy. Think that everybody should be looking at that, You know, we're in the middle of a pandemic. And so some industries air struggling Some career paths are struggling. Um, so has a door shut in one direction. But surely a door has opened in another direction because there are some industries and career paths that are thriving. So So, Caroline, as you bumped along and changed, Not really sure exactly as you were going through it, but with your hindsight. Now, how did you transition into your career that your your present position and the company you have? Yeah. So I pursued my interest. I definitely paid attention to that. I also looked at opportunities and what the market will bear right with those interests. And so I you know, I was interested in career, that first job in career services at university. It was because, selfishly enough, I wanted to learn good job search technique. I wanted to be in the office when the jobs were getting posted. I wanted to see how Why? Why didn't I think of that? Like so my first job. I was a first year in college, and I was a gofer for the employers that were interviewing the seniors that were graduating into full time jobs. And so my job was just to sit outside the interview room and sign people in. So when the next kid and then to knock on the door when it was, you know, 25 minutes, Thio. Yeah, of course. And so, of course I was listening. Not only was I listening, but when the employer would come out for a break or at the end of the day, I would ask them So who did well and what did you like? And, you know, where can we improve? And it was. And of course, I shared that information with school. So I went right back to my boss, and I let her know you don't What was was was good about kind of students that came. Um, I didn't necessarily out someone, but I would I would say, Oh, you know, it looks like people didn't really do their research here, and so I would pick up certain tips and techniques. And so, by the time I became a senior and that was me in the interview room Oh, I had also You're good. You're interviewing them. You were ready. Oh, so you you moved on. You moved into your own career, and and then I don't want to take up too much of your time. And I think the career that you've had, the things that you jumped into, you are a banker. You're a recruiter. You were a number of other things. But when was it in your career that you felt you wanted to branch out for yourself? Or did you even feel like you were doing something for yourself while working in these positions? Yeah. Yes. So I call myself the reluctant entrepreneur. And again, I say that as an encouragement to people who are out there who who think of starting their own business as a risky problems. Too risky for me, like I'm not going to do something like that. Well, I don't think of myself as a particularly, you know, risk lover, you know, are very risky person. I think of myself as a very planned, risk averse person. But for me, I was pursuing my interest. I was pursuing different careers and I really enjoyed. There were two things that I really enjoyed, which were the recruiting aspect. I love all things career. I love interviewing people. I love meeting people. But I also loved advising work. I loved coaching people on their careers. I loved teaching. I was an adjunct at the time for for University. I'm still there 20 years and counting at Columbia University, um, teaching professional development, and...

I enjoyed that aspect of it, and I didn't want to have to choose. And I also felt like knowing what I know about business. Ondas Much as I think companies talk about HR and how important the people function is to the business the end of the day, it's not making money for the company. It's not like sales, Um, where you're bringing in dollars for the company unless you are running a recruiting agency or running a coaching firm. And so that's what I had to dio. And since there isn't a combined recruiting and coaching firm that I could see I made my own. So for me, I thought of it as I I wanna make my dream job. I didn't see it anywhere. And so let me put these projects together and and essentially create that dream job for myself. So what is the name of your company that you have now? And how does that help? You know? Yeah, absolutely. Job and employers. Yeah. So I So I have gone through a number of different incarnations. When I started the company in 2000 and eight, I had a business partner who has since retired, And so when we branded the company initially it was called six Figure start. That website is actually still out there, and the thinking behind that was because we both had worked in campus recruiting as well as experienced recruiting. And so the idea was to get people out of the gate onto that six figure career path since six figure start when she retired on officially, it was this year. I have since I, um, rebranded just under my name Ceniza Levine dot com, and I created actually a program called the Dream Career Club. So you can also find me their dream career club dot com. And and it's exactly what it sounds like where I really believe that there is a dream career for everybody. And as I said in the beginning, it's not about employees versus entrepreneur or that, you know, to be an executive. Do you think that would have worked? I mean, I can just looking at the difference in names to 2000 and 86 Figure start That seems bold and like, you know, like a good name, marketing wise, brand wise to the Dream Career Club do, and that seems appropriate now. Do you think the Dream Career Club would have worked in the sense of the name of the branding? Or was it that was the time, and that was appropriate. Six. Figure. Yeah, I think I think both of them would have worked honestly. And I think that And this is another lesson I feel like for folks, where I think that people are so And of course, they'll be branding agencies who will tell you it's all about the name. It's all about the logo. It's all about the tagline. It's all about the headline. But at the end of the day, it's all about a lot of things right, and I think both things can work and I know some some coaches, and I know some recruiters who very successfully brand just with their name, without a tagline or without and outside name. I know people who brand very effectively without ah specific website presence I bond. Then I also know people who create multiple strong brands. And so I think it's less about what the name is and more just about, hey, can people find me? And can people get a sense of who I am? And this is why I love doing podcasts and why I do so much work with the media is because I feel like this is the way that you get your message out, whatever it's called. So, Caroline, what is the process? So if a college student or whoever your demographic is comes to you in search of a job, they want to be part of the club. What what's the process there? What do you bring them through? Yeah, so I have a six step job search process, and if it's someone who's going through a career change where career changes is, I define as where you're looking for a job that's outside what you've normally done. So you're either changing your role, let's say from sales to marketing or marketing to finance or you're changing. Your industry used to be in financial services, and now you're moving into media or into retail, or it's both. You're changing your role and your industry. So career change is different than job search. Because yes, you're trying to get hired or you're trying to start a business, but you're doing something you haven't done before, and so it's much more disruptive to your life. It's a process that typically takes longer. So when I talk about creating that dream career, if it's something, it's different. There are a few extra steps, but generally speaking, I take people through a systematic process specifically because, you know, I think people here go out and get a job, and it's like, What? How exactly...

...do I do that? And so we start with identifying what that area of interest is, and then it goes into creating the marketing material behind that and for a nem ploy E or for a job seeker, that means your resume. Your cover letter, Your online profile for most people is linked in almost exclusively the way that you talk about yourself that's marketing to how you introduce yourself. And then there's, of course, the research the work around, what companies are in this area that you say that you're interested in what types of roles, what level would make sense for you. There's that. Then, of course, there's actually meeting the people and interviewing with the people. Then there's trouble shooting because you don't just move from step to step. Two step. Invariably, things go wrong. You apply for a job you never hear back. You go for a meeting. Nothing happens from that meeting. You go far along a process. Maybe you don't get the offer. You come in second place or third place or you don't even know how you place. You just don't get the offer right. And so troubleshooting is a step in the process. And then finally, there's, of course, negotiating and closing that offer because as much as we like to think, it's a simple as dropping a resume, having a conversation, and then the perfect offer shows up. Now you multiple interviews. You've got toe. Negotiate that offer. Make sure it's at the right compensation at the right title at the right level that you have the right support, etcetera, etcetera. So there are multiple steps, and we work through all of them, depending on where the person is. And like I said, if it's a career change, there might be some pre steps there to really play around with what that area of interest is and to set up their life so that they can absorb whatever the new career is going to mean for the rest of their life. So you do the career change, but you're also dealing with people getting into work as well. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think really they go hand in hand. I think if if you're thinking about a career change, I think what really stymie is a lot of people is okay, I get it. I'm not happy where I am. I want to find something better. But what does better mean exactly how Doe I actually translate? I want toe work in ah, collaborative, fast paced environment where I'm dealing with people. What does that mean from an industry perspective or from a role perspective? How doe I translate that and that's where I come in because I have been a recruiter and I've seen thousands of jobs, and I've hired from thousands of candidates and seen many, many different profiles. And so, you know, I have that advantage of seeing, you know, a multiple times what a Nen Vivid Jewel person has seen in their career because, of course, they're just managing themselves. Carolina, like the reason I have this podcast is to show the skills and talents of people because I'm in amazement of the talents that people have and the jobs they're able to do and what they're able to produce or how they serve. And I, I think, almost in home way, although you would do it much better than I would or maybe even have a greater appreciation. But can you comment on the appreciation you have for the skills and talents of people that you've seen and the thousands of interviews you've done and all the research that you're doing? Because to me, I look back and it's like people are their own individual artists, right? They have all these wonderful skills that I do not have that I lack, and I'm just I stand in awe off what people are able to accomplish. Yeah, Absolutely. I mean, some of the career paths that I've seen, you know, I break it down by industry. So I've had the privilege of working with people in the financial sector in creative sectors like media and entertainment, Um, in retail and fashion and pharma biotech, especially in this arrow. The race to the vaccine s oh so many different types of industries nonprofit education. You know, I've never worked in the government or recruited for the government. So that's what the public sector is. One place where I just haven't been involved. But otherwise I've touched so many different industries. And it's so interesting to be at the, you know, in the audience, like just watching people talk about their industries. What innovations air happening? What are the trends that are happening, how the business works? I find that super interesting. And then for the individual, what are they contributing? So that's their role. I've worked with sales people in marketing people, financial people, operations, people, creative editorial or or graphics engineers and and and technical people. And again, those you know, watching those skills unfold. And they might be people skills, ways of...

...relating might be communication skills, Whether it's writing or, um, you know, public speaking, something like that. It could be a technical skill. And that could be, you know, a software or could be financial analysis or something, Uh, you know, quantifiable that way. And so just just watching what people bring to the table and what I find so interesting is that people you talk about, people are individual artists. I thought you were going to say people are their own individual worst enemy. I have a lot of very, very talented professionals who don't see all of the talents who don't break down their own background in that way and see that their career path. Which again, because people kind of walk through it a little bit operable opportunistically, they make the best decisions they can at the time. They don't necessarily think about all of the interesting experiences and winds that they collect along the way. And so that's another thing that I help people with is to really eyes wide open. See that there are so many interesting and juicy aspects of their background that they should mind for future opportunities. Well, Caroline, that's actually a question that I had that I introduced in the beginning is where do you think we should be putting our hope in the sense of our career? Is it how the markets ebb and flow? And you listen to someone saying, Well, there's this much of unemployment. This is the unemployment rate or should we be looking to ourselves and as on artist or however we look at ourselves and to develop our skills and to be ready at all times because I find were drawn through media or the news toe? Look at what the news is telling us about what's out there for an opportunity versus there are people that will encourage you and tell you to build your skills. But I find that the temptation is to draw yourself away from yourself rather than looking to yourself and seeing what you have to offer to an employer. Well, it's a combination of both, and I call it playing offense and defense. And so offense is you're going after something. So you're looking at your interests. You're looking at what's going toe light you up and you have ideas on the industries on the roles that you would be interested in defense is about the market. It's about responding to what the external conditions are. So we are in the midst of a pandemic. Thehuffingtonpost ity industry is is just brutal right now. That being said, I had a client who was 100% hospitality industry and she was looking thio make a career change and to change her role from operations into, ah, learning and development. And when you want to change your role, all things being equal, you want to stay in your industry if you can, because at least there's something that stays constant. You have a body of expertise and you have a network that you can tap into. Well, her industry was decimated. She she finally made that career change and her, um, her employer shut down entirely. So e. I mean, it wasn't that she was laid off. It was the entire company closed down. And yet here she is, you know, a few months later and she got herself another job and completed that career change in that industry that is supposedly decimated Bye, in this case, the pandemic. And so in up and in down markets, companies are always hiring at least some companies and we have to find those companies. If you want something badly enough, you will find it. And so you know, it's a combination of being realistic and responding to market conditions. But it's also sticking Thio what you're interested in and playing that offense and really going after things. Andi and I can't say that one is more important than the other. Um, because I really think it's about the individual person and kind of where their their circumstances are with my client. She had the luxury of spending several months on her search, whether it was because she got a good enough severance package or she had savings in the bank or whatever it is. I've also worked with clients where they don't have that luxury and speed is of the utmost. And in that case, I tell people toe, look at what the growth markets are too toe look more defensively to say What are the external conditions? Because at that point you're playing probabilities, so it really, really depends. Yeah, I do like how you said being ready. Would you say the same thing as well? If someone versus finding a job in their interests versus needing a job to pay the bills. Well, everyone that I work with in some way, shape or form...

...needs the job to pay the Bills, right. I I I don't tend to work with people who are financially independent in the sense of, like a trust fund, baby or just someone you know at retirement, looking for their legacy career. That being said so so going back to that example of the person trying to make a career change. But she had her three months to invest in it, so she's not looking at, um, I can't pay rent by next month. She's not financially independent, so there's a timeline. But there's at least a long enough timeline that she can invest some time into thinking about what's best for her. And I would argue that most people are in her boat, that most people are not going to be at least most people who are looking to get a career coach right. You are investing in that kind of off training and in that kind of program they're at the stage in their career where they're not gonna be homeless by next week. If they don't get a job that they do have some runway. I think what happens is that people, I think they could do it on their own or they waste a lot of time, honestly, kind of running around and trying the easy stuff, maybe submitting their resume for a bunch of things or talking to people that they know. They don't really have a strategy at the outset, and then they're 12 or three months in their stuck. They haven't been working, and then they're like, Oh, my goodness, I have to get a job tomorrow versus taking that step back in the beginning and say, Okay, I'm going to do this right from the beginning and I'm going to give myself the full amount of time to invest. Do you find Caroline that there's people who are not following some logical steps to finding a job, and then they're getting near the end discouraged, maybe even depressed and feeling like they can't get a job. But the reality is they didn't follow a process like that. You have set up or some logical way of doing it, and they're just they're just going about it the wrong way, and it seems like they're burning more energy than they're getting in return. Yeah, you know, I think it's I think it's less about logic because I do think that people feel like they're doing the best that they can. I mean, maybe that's that's me being optimistic about people. But I do feel like people make the best decisions that they can at the time. And it they might have not looked for a job in a long time. And maybe the last time they got a job, it was through submitting a resume and someone called them and it happened to work out. And in fact, I work with a lot of people who were mid career. These are experienced folks. They're ambitious, They have a good network and they're smart, you know? So there. These aren't These aren't folks who don't lack you, who lack common sense right there. Smart, industrious people. But what it is is that in the beginning of your career, the world is your oyster. You you can almost stumble into a job because you're coming fresh out of university. Let's say everyone's dying to hire you, Um, and it's when you get mid career when you have 5, 10, 15, 20 years under your belt. Well, this is when you're potentially pigeonholed into a specific industry. Or maybe people will look at your background and say, Wow, with 10 years of experience, I would have expected this person to know more about X y Z or to be at a higher title. And all of a sudden the bars higher, Of course, because you have more experience, and I think people might not be ready for that kind of a competitive search. And then also, if you haven't looked for a job in a long time, you're not ready for today's job market. You know I'm in the job market all the time. I'm either hiring people or I'm helping them get hired by coaching them. So I'm seeing a lot of different job searches, not just one right, not just your own job search. And so I'm seeing the trends that are happening in hiring, and I have to remind even my smart, talented professionals I have to remind them that you're not just competing with other jobseekers. You're competing with freelancers or consultants that are pitching for the work you're competing with. automation that might get rid of that job entirely. You're competing with internal people at the company who might just move right in there, and then all of a sudden there is no job opening. So this isn't yesterday's job search like this is what's happening now based on the tools, the hiring tools and processes that are in the market right now, based on the economic conditions, uh, that are right now. So this post pandemic, etcetera, etcetera. And so I think that people don't necessarily take all those things into consideration because because why would they be thinking about that? They're busy doing their job and living their life. How, Caroline, how optimistic are you about being in the midst of work in...

...the hiring and helping aspect of it? How optimistic are you for people who really want to find a job? Whatever it is, wherever their interest take them? How optimistic are you again? It depends on your runway, right? And so I'm optimistic for the person who has time to invest. I will tell you that in general, in a down market and I call the market, we're in a down market because there's been an amazing external shock to the system. Right and companies are suffering and the economy is suffering. And when that happens, companies are gun shy about hiring. They get a little bit scared about making that investment. Gosh, if I hire someone and I make that commitment than what? So hiring a slower in this type of a market, it happens. But it's in general, it's slower. And so I'm optimistic for the person who who goes in eyes wide open and says, Okay, I know it might take a little bit longer, but I'm okay. I'm not gonna be homeless next week. I know you know where I have some savings or I have my severance or I'm in it toe work really hard, and I'm going toe to do the things that I have to do. The research, the marketing, that talking to people, the interview technique, etcetera, etcetera. Um, I'm very optimistic for those folks. I think today is an amazing time to be designing your dream career because there's so many different options open to you, Caroline, thinking of you selling candy or getting into baby sitting Working hard is a student as well as for these people you're dealing with primarily of changing a career. Is there some advice that you have, even even something that is not other interests as a kid? But I guess for you selling candy was. But whether it's selling lemonade or selling, you know, working in McDonald's or something, whatever their motivation is toe work. Is there advice for that you have for people just getting into or changing their career? Yes, I think the first thing is to believe that it can happen. If you can't sell yourself on your ability to change careers, you won't be very convincing talking to anybody else. Why? Why do you think some people are hesitant? And then I know nerves kind of get in the way. Lack of confidence? Why are people may be hesitant to believe that they can land this job or get a career going Well, I think that sometimes people, especially by the time that they come to see me, typically they've tried to do things themselves, so they've been around the block. Maybe they've been knocked around a bit. They've gotten rejected from jobs which is common right, which is common people listening. It's common so If you're getting knocked around, someone else probably got knocked around as well. Many exactly, and especially if you haven't gone on the market in a while and maybe you have an outdated resume or a resume. That or you're talking about yourself in a way that isn't isn't ideal because it's not for today's job market or it's not addressing the things that are relevant to your new career. You know, you asked me about career change specifically, and so the thing that I would say is you're talking about a new career and you have to be talking to a new audience, a new market, a new set of companies, a new set of decision makers and many times people are are stuck in their old career. You know, they're proud of their old career, which is fabulous, and they talk about everything that they've accomplished kind of in that old career with those old buzzwords and the jargon that's meaningful to people in their old career. But if you want a new career, if you're entering a new area like you have to be all in into that area, I'm not going to be talking to a financial services person in the same way that I talked to a media person in the same way that I talked to a nonprofit person. Shame on me. If I do that, that's that's my issue, right? So you, as the person who wants a career change, like if you're going from financial services to media to nonprofit, to fill in the blank, you have to talk their language. It's not about them, you know, understanding you. It's about you relating to them. Thinking of that I studied and this is by no means did I do very well or remember but studied, say, Greek or Hebrew. And while I studied it, I didn't really put it into practice. Now, thinking of someone going from one career to another, they need to learn this language and is there. Is there a way for it not to be phony or you're kind of pressing it when it's not...

...something that you're really used to in a interview? Or as you start going in this process of a new career, is there a way to kind of get yourself familiar with the jargon, the language so that your mawr tuned to what they're looking for. Well, I think you had the great analogy of learning Greek. Let's say I know you're probably thinking about It's all Greek to me and that that's why Greek came out. But, um, learning a language, whether it's Greek, French, Chinese or fill in the blank, there's no substitute for speaking the language right for throwing yourself into it. And it's the listener that you're conversing with. Who's going to decide whether you really speak Greek, French, Chinese or fill in the blank. And similarly, in a career change, there is no substitute for throwing yourself into it. And so, uh, to give you an example, let's say, financial services. So let's Zaken industry change. You're going from financial services to media. Do you know the companies that are are the top companies in the sector that you're looking at specifically in media? Do you know what's happening in that industry? What, um, what keeps media CEOs up a night? What exactly they're hiring for what some of the big initiatives are that is speaking Greek to a Greek person or Chinese to a Chinese person. You're speaking media to the media people. Let's take a role example, you are a finance person and you want to move into marketing and you say, Trust me, I I know marketing well. Have you volunteered for your local community organization to organize an event for them to do their social media marketing to help them with a direct mail campaign to do marketing for your center daughters, pre school or high school, or fill in the blank? There's so many ways to actually do marketing so that you're not telling people. Sure, I speak Greek. You're just speaking to them in Greek, and then they realize, Oh my goodness, your great is pretty good, right? You might not be fluent, but But if you can carry on a conversation, they might say, Okay, I'm going to continue with this conversation with you and in talking to me, you're gonna learn more Greek and you've done a little marketing. I'm gonna bring you on and then working with me, you're gonna You're going to improve your marketing, Caroline. And that's great Carolina. As I said, I'm over here with a life jacket on treading water as I speak to you. So I'm amazed by what it is you're doing. How do you stay so productive? What keeps you going? Yeah, So I love what I do. That definitely helps. And I know that I hearken back all the time. Thio, pursue your interests. Like I said, I don't do that in a vacuum. I'm also looking at market conditions. I also play defense and invest my money well and all of that. I take care of myself, but I do think it helps a lot that I just love careers. And so I stay up on my industry. So I talk to other recruiters. I talked to other coaches. I am naturally curious about what's happening in my space, which is the career space so that I can see around corners and I can see how how things have changed and I can create services and products that respond Thio the hiring market, the job search market right now and not in 2000 and eight, even when I got started. So that definitely helps me the fact that I'm just naturally interested And then practically speaking, I you know, I set goals for myself. I I monitor my time. I keep a time diary, much like people will keep a food diary or a spending diary. And so I know if I'm spending time on this recruiting project or this coaching client or how much marketing I'm doing by guesting on a podcast like this one or by writing, ah, career advice piece or by doing a talk eso I'm tracking all of these things and I'm troubleshooting Just like I tell my my career clients to troubleshoot. I'll Look and I'll see. Did anything come of this? Should I be doing more of this? Should I be doing less of this? Is there something that, um, I should start doing that that I'm not doing? How do you How do you keep those work Life choices in check. So how do you turn off your work? And I mean, you probably schedule it. What is it that you do? So you know that. Okay, I'm done. Where I gotta put this aside and gets, um, not balance, but something else. Some spice? Yeah, for sure. You...

...know, I do what works for me, which is It's interesting. I try a lot of different things. I love to read about productivity, about different hacks, if you will, because I always feel like I'm gonna learn something and I try different things. I read about other entrepreneurs and how they managed to put boundaries between their business and their life. For me, counterintuitively, I don't necessarily recommend it to people I have preferred doing, Ah, little bit almost every day, then putting all of my work into, let's say, on Monday to Friday or Monday to Thursday, I will do a lot of my writing on Saturday and Sunday. You know, instead of taking, let's say the whole weekend off, I'll do a lot of my meetings late in the day. Um, I do a lot of personal things early in the morning when I know that some people are saying right away, I'm going to start with my work day. That's the That's the time where I like to sometimes to sit with my journal. I like to do my meditation early in the morning, and so I have found what works for me, and that's what I tell my clients. I tell my clients that you do have to take time to rest and refresh. I'm never going to tell you when that time is gonna be. If It's a few hours, you know, scattered throughout the week. Or if it's one full day, you need that one full day. More power to whatever it is. Um, experiment. If you're not sure, do something for a couple of weeks. See how you feel. Do something else for a couple weeks. See how you feel. But don't be afraid, Thio. Change it up if it's not working and don't feel like just because you know this work for someone else or for a lot of people, even that it's gonna work for you. Yeah, I don't know if this is a good question. I ask people this, but I'd like your input on the idea of character in career. So as a career coach, do you speak to your clients about their character? Or do you just let them do what they want in the career that they choose? I certainly give advice around based on what they're telling me. Their values and interests and priorities are I will tell them. Have you considered this functional area? Have you considered this industry? Have you thought of this size of company? I'll say, you know, you strike me as someone who would be happier in a startup environment versus in a big, established company. Now I had a client recently who waas interested exclusively in big, established companies, and I I said to her, I think you would actually be amazing in a funded start up that its fast growing just based on your talents and based on the environment that you say that you want. You're not describing a big established company. She disagreed. It's her career. She is going to be the one that lives it. And so that is not my call to May. That being said, she had a mentor. I mean, she has a mentor so different from a coach, right? This is someone who is advising her on the side. And they have this, you know, kind of personal relationship. And that mentor had the same feedback and she came back to me and she said, You know, my mentor said almost the identical thing that you said and and it planted to see it. She's still going after the big company, and my work with her was to get her ready for that type of a job search, because how you present yourself Obviously, the research that you do the company set is different. The decision makers or different what they're gonna be looking for is different. And so we were working towards that type of of job search because that's her decision. But certainly I will. I will let my opinions be known, and I will also tell people when I see a range of options and I'll say, Okay, let's pursue this for now. But keep in mind that here's 23 or four you know, Plan B, C and D. And these are some things that we might want to revisit. Um, as you go along your coach, right, your career coach and I know you're not into sports or you didn't place for its growing up. But do you have, like, a winds lost percentage going on of where you directed people in the right way versus they didn't listen to me, and then they eventually turned or you were just just wrong in some advice, not in the sense that it was completely wrong, but just what you felt was better for them. Do you have some little thing going on with? So the thing is that people come to me at different stages, so, you know, defining when and loss. It's not gonna be the same for everyone. But I'll tell...

...you, you know, just highlights. Some of the big winds are when you know, I've had multiple clients this year who have changed careers who have made more money in doing so. So it's a It's a big myth that just because you start something new that you have to take a step back. And in fact, I had a client who, and this is not a type of 72% raise switching industries. It makes sense in this story because she was going from a lower paying industry, on average, to a higher paying industry. They wanted her skill set, and we really worked. She worked very hard, and she really listened and owned kind of the marketing and the rebranding that I was telling her to do. And so that enabled her to really sell her skills so that the industry jump to them was inconsequential and they felt like they were getting an expert on the skill side, and they paid her accordingly. So I consider those some big wins. I've had clients where, um and there was a client that I dealt with this year, someone I had worked with a few years ago and she came to me on board, said that she wanted a career change or, you know, wanted to make a big move, and I kind of put her through those paces. The things that I just listed here in terms of identifying a target and the marketing and the research, and she she went most of the way through. But when it came time to really start moving her network and people that she was talking Thio two job openings and it's it's not necessarily easy. You're doing a lot of this work, and sometimes it doesn't happen right away, and she didn't want to continue. She got a job offer that was kind of right in her comfort zone, and she felt like that was what she wanted to dio rather than hold out for something. You know, she relied on defense rather than offense, and that's fine, except that her industry was under siege and it's still under siege, and now we're three years after and she's in that boat and she actually came back to me toe work in one of my programs to work with me again. And I referred her to someone else just because I felt like I I wanted her to have a different perspective. I felt like I didn't get through to her the first time. And, um, s o I I didn't feel like that wouldn't have been a productive relationship there. I think that people need to get the support that they need. And so sometimes, you know, sometimes you can't You can't bring people thio. So the reality that you think is is so obvious to you, you know they're not ready for it. I think I have no doubt that you have a lot of success, is under under your belt, and it is quite interesting. And I'm sure you have a lot of stories. And I also know that you're under a time restraint, so I only have a couple of questions and I would really like toe stretch that this longer. But I know time is eluding us. You mentioned a goal. Do you have an overarching goal for your company or what it is you're doing in work? Well, I designed my company to be a ah lifestyle company in the sense that I didn't design it to exit Thio to sell it potentially do a bigger company, um, to pass it on to my kids, you know? So I really designed it to include all of the things that I enjoy doing to pay me what I want to earn so that I can live the life that I want to live. And so that's what I've been working towards all these years. And so it's a moving target in the sense that my interests have also changed over time. And so I've, you know, I change up what it is that I like to dio. So that's still a work in progress. I think it's going to be a work in progress until I decide I somehow want to express my interest in a different way outside this business. Um, so So that's that's really the metric that I It's like, Do I still love what I dio? Would I do it if I didn't need the money? Then I know that I'm on the right track, Um but at the same time, because I'm an economist at heart perhaps, or my first job was business consulting, right? I do wanna have ah, thriving business that's growing. I want it to be challenging. I wanted Thio not to be all consuming, you know, so that I have, uh, enough of a profit margin coming in that I feel like I could take vacations and I could take time off that it's not just me adversely. Is there any adversity that you have faced that either helps or hinders your work? But thinking in terms of people who are now facing or have face adversity in their life, thio offer them some advice? Oh, for sure. I...

...mean, let's just start with the pandemic again. Um, I had work that was out now canceled, you know, And I have I help people with their with their jobs and their careers and and on the one hand, yeah, people are more concerned about their jobs and Chris, but they're also really concerned about spending money and about making risky moves as they perceive it. Career change and that's my expertise is around going after that dream career. And so this market, you know, has some challenges for me. So when you talk about adversity. I mean, it's like, Wow, do you mean today or just this week? Or dio in this quarter? I mean, things are always happening. Eso So certainly the pandemic changes business, and it changes how everybody has to do business and how everybody has to look for a job. And so you you ignore market conditions to your detriment. I always think that you have to look at what's going on around you. Um, I married. I have a family I have outside interests. And so I'm always juggling. You know what's going on there? And so again, with the pandemic school shut down and you know, just having to have everybody squeezing into ah home now becomes a co working space. Everyone's home is a co working space. And so it's It's just juggling that, making sure that there there's enough WiFi. I mean, this is there are all sorts of of adversity. Um, I don't I don't have anything so dramatic as let's say, Ah, medical illness or a personal crisis. Um, I do have clients who have gone through that, and I will tell you that I'm pretty frank with them that I'm of the opinion that sometimes the conditions aren't right to do a major career overhaul or career investment. I once had a quiet who came to me who wanted to do a career change, was also dealing with elderly parents with some other family medical issues. And this was transatlantic because he was here in the US, his parents were in Europe and it just wasn't the right time. And that's what I said to him. I said, The market will be there when you deal with these. When you move your parents and toe, you know that he was moving them into another residents and, yeah, just all sorts of things that he was juggling. And so we paused it for a good six months. But then when he came back, he was even more committed, and he realized he was like, Yes, yes, you're right. And so So you know, sometimes things happen and you you just have Thio again. Do the best you can in terms of making the best decision for right now that could be making a big career move that could be working your career of the margins, maybe just doing research while you're you're managing some of your other life stuff. Um, whatever it iss Caroline, how can people reach you? I know you're the author of Jump Ship. 10 Steps to Starting a New Career. You may wanna find plug that a little bit, but how can people find you and maybe even connect with you about the Dream Career Club? Yeah, absolutely. If you just go to dream career club dot com that will get you right on the page that talks about the club. But then it also gets you into my broader site. I have dozens of articles on there which deal with career. Um, on the coaching page, there is a replay of a webinar that I lead called Land a Job you Love, which outlines that nine step process that I talked about. So it talks about the six steps of actual job search, plus kind of those pre steps I talked about when you are looking to change careers. And so you know, that's a free resource for stuff. And then right on the homepage is a downloadable checklist called the 25 career mistakes Even smart professionals make because I find that, you know, again, even smart, talented, ambitious folks. They sometimes run their career on autopilot, and they don't step back and work on their career. And not just in their day to day job. And so the first step of having a dream career is really asking yourself, Is that what I have now? Or is there some improvement that I need to make Doesn't mean you quit your job, But is there some improvement that I need to make that will get me to that dream career? You offer a lot of wisdom and great advice. Carolina have one final question for you, and that is, why do you work? Hello? Well, I For me, my career has been the stepping stone into an amazing wife. I feel like I I split my time among New York, where I was born and...

...raised and lived for the first half of my life. And I have since taken up residence in northeast Florida because I love the beach and I love to be here, and I also have vacation property in Tamarindo, Costa Rica, and so I can kind of move around when borders are open. But I can move around and live in different places and do the things that I love. And so for me I feel like I I never envisioned that when I was a small kid selling Junior Mints for little profits. But now I can do that because I built this dream career for myself. That that gives me what I want and pays me very well for it. And that's what I want for everybody. It's like we spend so much time working, Brian. I mean, let's face it, 40 hours, 50 60 hours. So you might as well do it, uh, with something that you want. Caroline Ceniza Levine, author, contributor to Forbes Careers as well as career coach and the owner of the Dream Career Club. I thank you for your time, young lady, and I appreciate the work that you do. Thanks so much, Brian. Thank you for listening to this episode of why we work with Brian V. Be sure to subscribe, follow and share with others so they, too, can be encouraged in their work. I hope that you have yourself a productive, joyful day in your work.

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